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satan1974
Old 10-04-2005, 06:40 PM     Post subject: Starting hand sheet? #1 (permalink)  
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Does anybody have (or know a link to) a good solid standard TAG starting hand sheet, that says what you should fold/call/raise depending on your position, number of other players, number of limpers, number of raises, etc? Specifically for NL ring games, low stake.

I've seen one on 2+2 relating to HU/Short stack, but would like one for 9/10 table.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 10-04-2005, 06:42 PM #2 (permalink)  
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How's about you write one and we'll correct it.

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Irisheyes
Old 10-04-2005, 06:55 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Hows this? I'm playing $10 NL.

To open pot:
Raise AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ all positions

Raise JJ, TT in LP, limp to set in EP

Limp to set all other pp's all positions.

Limp KQ, AJ in MP and LP. Fold in EP.

Someone else raises:
Call reasonable raises with pp's and AK (maybe reraise AK)

Reraise AA, KK, QQ.

Fold all else to a raise.

SC's
Limp suited connectors on Cutoff or button or SB with >= 3 limpers.
Fold to a raise unless it's like a 3x raise with 4 callers.


All the above is situation and read dependant.

Correct to your hearts content.
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satan1974
Old 10-04-2005, 07:12 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Thanks for both of the comments. Combining the two, I will take the info above, combine it with my own thoughts, and turn it in to a excel sheet. I'll then post it here for everyone to comment/pick on.

Basically, I turned my $100 bankroll in to $170, and now it's gone back down to $100 and I _think_ I've been playing pretty much the same. I obviously have some big leaks somewhere. This is on $10NL, over about 2000 hands. Could just be variance, but I don't think it is. I think it's down to consistency (or lack of) in the hands I am playing from different positions based on reads of other players. I'm using PT and PokerAce and have good feels for what is going on around me - I think it's my own discipline and starting hand strategy that's letting me down.
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r8ed
Old 10-04-2005, 07:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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This looks pretty good to me, except I tend to limp KQs and AJs in EP if the table isn't too aggressive preflop, but will fold to a decent raise. That's at 25NL. I don't raise AQ and AK unless I'm in LP. I may consider changing this since AK is a losing hand for me. I mix up raising TT LP. Of course everyone plays a little different but this guide is good, espeically since it's so easy to remember. You won't need a chart.

Somebody here actually made a chart way back when that had it layed out nicely, but that was in like Jan or Feb.
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satan1974
Old 10-04-2005, 07:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
Somebody here actually made a chart way back when that had it layed out nicely, but that was in like Jan or Feb.
Don't suppose you can find the link?
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EasyT
Old 10-04-2005, 10:51 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Make a new chart. Charts are a specialized thing. Want mine. It's easy (I use this from nl100 to nl1000). pp, ak, aq, aj, kq, kj. I'll raise pp ten and up ak, aq. call unraised pots with aj, kq, kj, and call reasonble preflop raises with pp 9 and under. Short list huh? I don't care about suited or unsuited, but if they happen to be suited and I happen to hit a flush draw on the flop, then i play it accordingly.

Position matters a little less in NL because you can literally TAKE POSITION (or make it irrelevent) by making a big bet or going AI. In limit raising AK and missing your flop is what it is. In NL it's whatever you make it. If you raise 5xBB preflop and then bet the pot as a continuation bet you'll get no callers unless the flop hit someone square in the teeth or they have a really big pocket pair. In limit you can't do that. That's why hands are valued differently, they are bet differently, and once you unlock the secrets of betting and know that it's a fold or raise game then you're gonna do just fine.
This is my new favorite chart. I was playing way too many hands. Thanks AOK.

EasyT
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Les_Worm
Old 10-04-2005, 10:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Hows this? I'm playing $10 NL.

To open pot:
Raise AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ all positions

Raise JJ, TT in LP, limp to set in EP

Limp to set all other pp's all positions.

Limp KQ, AJ in MP and LP. Fold in EP.

Someone else raises:
Call reasonable raises with pp's and AK (maybe reraise AK)

Reraise AA, KK, QQ.

Fold all else to a raise.

SC's
Limp suited connectors on Cutoff or button or SB with >= 3 limpers.
Fold to a raise unless it's like a 3x raise with 4 callers.


All the above is situation and read dependant.

Correct to your hearts content.
I don't like open/limping. Fold if you aren't gonna open/raise.
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r8ed
Old 10-05-2005, 04:31 AM #9 (permalink)  
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r8ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Hows this? I'm playing $10 NL.

To open pot:
Raise AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ all positions

Raise JJ, TT in LP, limp to set in EP

Limp to set all other pp's all positions.

Limp KQ, AJ in MP and LP. Fold in EP.

Someone else raises:
Call reasonable raises with pp's and AK (maybe reraise AK)

Reraise AA, KK, QQ.

Fold all else to a raise.

SC's
Limp suited connectors on Cutoff or button or SB with >= 3 limpers.
Fold to a raise unless it's like a 3x raise with 4 callers.


All the above is situation and read dependant.

Correct to your hearts content.
I don't like open/limping. Fold if you aren't gonna open/raise.
For this level or all levels?
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JeffreyGB
Old 10-05-2005, 05:19 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
I don't like open/limping. Fold if you aren't gonna open/raise.
I whole-heartedly disagree in the case of low pocket pairs. Limp to set in EP/MP or with multiple callers in LP. Raise if it's likely to be HU anyway.
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vqc
Old 10-05-2005, 07:27 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyT
Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Make a new chart. Charts are a specialized thing. Want mine. It's easy (I use this from nl100 to nl1000). pp, ak, aq, aj, kq, kj. I'll raise pp ten and up ak, aq. call unraised pots with aj, kq, kj, and call reasonble preflop raises with pp 9 and under. Short list huh? I don't care about suited or unsuited, but if they happen to be suited and I happen to hit a flush draw on the flop, then i play it accordingly.

Position matters a little less in NL because you can literally TAKE POSITION (or make it irrelevent) by making a big bet or going AI. In limit raising AK and missing your flop is what it is. In NL it's whatever you make it. If you raise 5xBB preflop and then bet the pot as a continuation bet you'll get no callers unless the flop hit someone square in the teeth or they have a really big pocket pair. In limit you can't do that. That's why hands are valued differently, they are bet differently, and once you unlock the secrets of betting and know that it's a fold or raise game then you're gonna do just fine.
This is my new favorite chart. I was playing way too many hands. Thanks AOK.

EasyT
up to NL1k. Thats crazy, u must be a postflop master.
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satan1974
Old 10-05-2005, 08:46 AM #12 (permalink)  
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I love this thread. I was playing too many hands even though I considered myself to be fairly good TAG.

This is what I've got so far;

(Hand : Action)
===========
PP(10+) : Raise(2-5bb)
PP(9-) : Call reasonable / limp
AK : Raise (2-4bb)
AQ : Raise (2-4bb)
AJ : Call unraised
KQ : Call unraised
KJ: Call unraised
Suited Cons 76+: Call unraised

How does this look? It's basically AOK's list in tab form
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JeffreyGB
Old 10-05-2005, 02:24 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satan1974
I love this thread. I was playing too many hands even though I considered myself to be fairly good TAG.

This is what I've got so far;

(Hand : Action)
===========
PP(10+) : Raise(2-5bb)
PP(9-) : Call reasonable / limp
AK : Raise (2-4bb)
AQ : Raise (2-4bb)
AJ : Call unraised
KQ : Call unraised
KJ: Call unraised
Suited Cons 76+: Call unraised

How does this look? It's basically AOK's list in tab form
The "call unraised" should read "fold in EP; call unraised in MP; raise unraised in LP".

Suited connectors: call unraised in MP/LP if multiple limpers are already in.
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satan1974
Old 10-05-2005, 02:36 PM #14 (permalink)  
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satan1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
The "call unraised" should read "fold in EP; call unraised in MP; raise unraised in LP".
Is it just me that thinks folding AJ in EP is _too_ tight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Suited connectors: call unraised in MP/LP if multiple limpers are already in.
So does that mean don't call them if you're in MP/LP and nobody has limped it? And should you call _all_ suited connectors regardless of value (ie, anything from 2/3 upwards).

This is for NL, so i didn't think the position was _that_ important?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 10-05-2005, 02:43 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satan1974
I love this thread. I was playing too many hands even though I considered myself to be fairly good TAG.

This is what I've got so far;

(Hand : Action)
===========
PP(10+) : Raise(2-5bb)
PP(9-) : Call reasonable / limp
AK : Raise (2-4bb)
AQ : Raise (2-4bb)
AJ : Call unraised
KQ : Fold everywhere unless suited
KJ: Fold everywhere
Suited Cons 76+: Fold everywhere

How does this look? It's basically AOK's list in tab form
For every hand you add to your list of starting hands, it'll either be a small winner or a big loser (as opposed to a small loser).

You can add these hands when your opposition dictates OR when you feel like you know how to play them profitable. (Don't think "I'm the greatest! I can LAgg it up with the best of them." Becuase you probably can't. Work on perfecting AJ before adding KQo and KJs/o.

-'rilla

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r8ed
Old 10-05-2005, 03:12 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I was playing this type of extra-tight chart for a little bit but wasn't making money. I loosened it a little to let me limp hands like AJ, KQo (when the table is not agg) in any position and play more hands on the button. This puts me at 21% VP$IP and I don't look too tight at the table. Profits are coming in now at 25NL. If you realize when to fold the borderline hands post flop, then you can play them with confidence.

These starting hand rankings really are no joke. I looked in PT and took my top ten winning % hands. They match the top 10 hands exactly (not exact order but very close). I figured there would maybe be an outlier but there wasn't. Some of these hands I have minor negative profit (AKo of course) but the percentage is there.

I suggest multi-tabling if you get bored. The more tables you play, the more you should restrict your starting hands.
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satan1974
Old 10-05-2005, 03:56 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Would you mind posting your chart, or editing mine as 'rilla did? What kinds of hands did you add for button play?
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Irisheyes
Old 10-05-2005, 05:29 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satan1974

(Hand : Action)
===========
PP(10+) : Raise(2-5bb)
If your going to raise make it 5x - 6x everytime, only change it if theres loads of limpers and you want isolation. Got this from rondavu and it's working well for me.

Also whatever about KQ, I think KJ is definitly a fold.
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JeffreyGB
Old 10-05-2005, 05:51 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satan1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
The "call unraised" should read "fold in EP; call unraised in MP; raise unraised in LP".
Is it just me that thinks folding AJ in EP is _too_ tight?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Suited connectors: call unraised in MP/LP if multiple limpers are already in.
So does that mean don't call them if you're in MP/LP and nobody has limped it? And should you call _all_ suited connectors regardless of value (ie, anything from 2/3 upwards).

This is for NL, so i didn't think the position was _that_ important?
I disagree that position is unimportant in NL. As far as what you play preflop, it can be the difference between leaking chips because you have to fold after limping and making tons because you know that with A9 on the button, you probably have the best hand when it's folded to you (and alternatively, you have few enough people to go through that you can make a play with any two cards, potentially turning any hand into a profitable one).

As 'rilla said, AJ stands to be a small winner or a big loser. Couple that with the "fold if raised" concept that I assumed was built in to limping it, and I don't think it's worth it in EP. The person who convinced me to start folding here (al beit in tournament play) has made nearly $200k this year.

Yes, I mean that I don't call in MP/LP if no one has limped in. You're limping to try to make a strong hand. That's only going to happen 5% of the time (I can find the link where I did this math if it's important...been months now). That means that when you hit you need to make more than 20x the price of the limp. Hard to do that when you're in there alone with the blinds. And yes, I was referring to "good" suited connectors primarily (56s+), however with enough limpers 23s is just as playable - the lower straight potential is somewhat offset by the fact that when you hit, someone often pairs their A (meaning they are more willing to pay you off), so adding an extra person or two into the pot makes this playable to me.

I'm a fan of the raise/fold mentality for a large portion of hands I play. So there's a huge list of hands that I'll fold everywhere but in LP. With the right table, 72o even makes it on to that list (but then that's a different subject completely).
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JeffreyGB
Old 10-05-2005, 05:55 PM #20 (permalink)  
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One thing I'll note too (echoing what r8ed said) is that my starting hand selection is geared toward what I play. You can profitably play more hands at loose passive tables (which many low stakes games are) because you're still playing a more TAG game than your opponents.
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r8ed
Old 10-05-2005, 07:12 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satan1974
Would you mind posting your chart, or editing mine as 'rilla did? What kinds of hands did you add for button play?
I don't use a chart since remembering PPs and AK/AQ isn't hard. The hands I play on the button vary depending on how many people in the pot and how I feel. If I think my image is super tight or I just check-raised and took down a big pot, then I want to change my image to appear looser. So, if everybody folds or there is one limper and I'm on the button - I'm playing many different hands (not 47o, but maybe as bad as K2s). I usually take the pot down on these flops anyway if it's checked back to me. But, my hope is to show down that hand for cheap so people (if they pay attention) will call me later. I might cut this out if I start playing more tables at once. Currently, I'm trying to work on my postflop play, so that's another reason I throw some more hands in. I don't push these hands hard though.

I recommend sticking to the tightest chart and take notes on how other people bet hands. How do typical players at your level play sets or draws or AA/KK? Mixing in other hands adds post flop complexity. If you can put you opponents on a range of hands based on the flop and how they bet, you'll clean up because you will recognize bluffs and weakness which you will take advantage of if you pay attention.
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