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Spotting Sets - How NOT to play AA

  
 
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Robb
Old 04-26-2008, 11:59 PM     Post subject: Spotting Sets - How NOT to play AA #1 (permalink)  
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 There have been a few newbies askin' about how to spot sets, how to avoid stacking off to them, how to avoid seeing them everywhere and folding too often. This one is classic. Villain is 10/8/0.5.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25.13)
CO ($39.29)
Hero ($80.76)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($37.68)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, CO raises to $0.85, Hero raises to $3.15, 2 folds, CO calls $2.3

Flop: ($6.65, 2 players)
CO bets $3, Hero raises to $15.65, CO goes all-in $36.14, Hero ??

I played it like a total dumbass. I knew I was beat and should have folded, but hadn't seen a decent hand in forever, yada, yada, blah, blah... You can see it here:

http://weaktight.com/171706
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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swiggidy
Old 04-27-2008, 12:27 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 How does this help?
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 01:49 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
How does this help?
Maybe I won't do it again if I post it
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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spoonitnow
Old 04-27-2008, 02:04 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 A smaller flop raise is sufficient imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

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I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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swiggidy
Old 04-27-2008, 02:20 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
A smaller flop raise is sufficient imo.
True, I still don't get away without a better read.

(not saying it's right, but I'm not fearing sets when they'll stack with AJ or worse)
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 02:29 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 I raise smaller like swigg and get it in on that flop.
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spoonitnow
Old 04-27-2008, 02:31 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 I would have to know if villain's stats were from full ring or 6-max before I comment much more on whether or not I would stack off.

Against this particular villain, it's not particularly bad. Against only sets or AJ, we're not that far behind, but I don't think he plays KJ this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 02:55 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 I think QQ can def be in his range too and a "tricky" KK sometimes. Basically JJ, AJ, QQ, KK sometimes imo.
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bikes
Old 04-27-2008, 03:45 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 5x 3bet on the flop? 15 to win 9 if you arent beat. You really leave yourself no room to fold if you were going to.

Meh. I felt this alot

That being said I'm still stacking off here cause we're way ahead of AJ, KK,QQ and KsQs played meh.

Not felting AA here is results oriented I think.
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 09:52 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I would have to know if villain's stats were from full ring or 6-max before I comment much more on whether or not I would stack off.

Against this particular villain, it's not particularly bad. Against only sets or AJ, we're not that far behind, but I don't think he plays KJ this way.
Stats are all 6max. We have a weak-tight, extremely passive villain who wakes up. A smaller flop raise and I can get away from it.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 02:49 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 wtf at getting away from it
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jyms
Old 04-27-2008, 02:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 One of the notes I always take on anyone with an AF under 1.5 (green stat BTW) is if they will lead or raise with TPTK. If he has ever raised like this with TP then I stack off. Typically when a 0.5 nit calls pre and raises any street alarm bells go off and I start shooting for pot control. Call this flop with the stats you have, and let him lead his nitty bets. When he tries to get it in it's time to run.
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 04:06 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 TJ - so you think basically only JJ takes this line? Never QQ, KK , AJ? And never a very micro-sized percentage of other hands?
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jyms
Old 04-27-2008, 04:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Any set takes this line. When a guy is 10/8 and has an AF of 0.5 he is never betting. This is the quintesential "setminer" He's not getting it all in without AA, KK or a set. 0.5's never bluff, and rarely ever bet, let alone raise.
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 04:24 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I didn't see stack effective stats, gg me. OP gave him odds. You can get away from it now.
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 06:00 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbickes
I'm still stacking off here cause we're way ahead of AJ, KK,QQ and KsQs played meh.

Not felting AA here is results oriented I think.
He's 10/8/0.5 and I just don't see a station/nit like this rr'ing huge with AJ, QQ or KQs.

I'm often willing to go busto with AA. But I just think I should have decided the set was likely, sized the flop raise better, and then gotten away from the hand. Because of the read, imo, not the results.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 06:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
I didn't see stack effective stats, gg me. OP gave him odds. You can get away from it now.
Like swigg, spoon and TJ have pointed out, the mistake is the flop raise (either smaller raise or call). You're right - after the raise, I'm pot committed.

Also, following up on TJ's comment, I don't see these TAF = 0.5 player's raising with draws. They call. I don't see any hand he could possibly be rr'ing with other than a set. Even KK he'd call, imo.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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bikes
Old 04-27-2008, 06:29 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
I didn't see stack effective stats, gg me. OP gave him odds. You can get away from it now.
Like swigg, spoon and TJ have pointed out, the mistake is the flop raise (either smaller raise or call). You're right - after the raise, I'm pot committed.

Also, following up on TJ's comment, I don't see these TAF = 0.5 player's raising with draws. They call. I don't see any hand he could possibly be rr'ing with other than a set. Even KK he'd call, imo.
Even KK isnt flat calling here If he called KK preflop hes looking to get it in on a flop without an A
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kmind
Old 04-27-2008, 07:03 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
I didn't see stack effective stats, gg me. OP gave him odds. You can get away from it now.
Like swigg, spoon and TJ have pointed out, the mistake is the flop raise (either smaller raise or call). You're right - after the raise, I'm pot committed.

Also, following up on TJ's comment, I don't see these TAF = 0.5 player's raising with draws. They call. I don't see any hand he could possibly be rr'ing with other than a set. Even KK he'd call, imo.
I'm on vacation and am trying to type fast so sorry about my horrible wording. What I meant to say was I didn't see effective stacks. But yeah, you should have raised more pre. You do that then there is no way I'm not felting this. We'd only be scared of JJ and the amount of "rare" times QQ and KK try to get it in will make up for it for sure.
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spoonitnow
Old 04-27-2008, 07:25 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 For what it's worth, you're never pot committed in cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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swiggidy
Old 04-27-2008, 08:01 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 How many hands are the stats over?

If we raise to $4 pre it seems we're blowing him out of the pot. If we're 3betting more than AA and not stacking on every flop, then he's not getting the implied odds he thinks he is for set hunting.
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 08:37 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
For what it's worth, you're never pot committed in cash.
I see your point, but there are times when you've just got to call. Example. I thought a maniac min-r'ing villain was bluffing and tried to bluff him off his hand. Check the river. LoL. He maybe wasn't pot committed, but he sure as hell should have called.

Back to the hand above - you're right. If I'm 95% certain I'm beaten, I can fold. And probably should have.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($4.75)
UTG 1 ($4.75)
UTG 2 ($3.88)
MP1 ($3.35)
MP2 ($48.41)
MP3 ($24.85)
CO ($2.92)
Hero ($25.69)
SB ($4.85)
BB ($3.54)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 10 players) Hero is BTN
6 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.1, SB raises to $1.95, 1 fold, CO folds, Hero calls $0.85

Flop: ($4.4, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.75, SB calls $2.75

Turn: ($9.9, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($9.9, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $9.9, SB folds

Edit: Villain has $.15 left.

Final Pot: $19.8

Hero wins $19.42 ( won $4.82 )
SB lost -$4.70
CO lost -$0.25
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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bikes
Old 04-27-2008, 08:38 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 I'm calling here with A-high alot.
If you had a PP you'd bet the turn imo. and a PSB on the river screams steal.

This was really bad, you beat nothing and the villian should have called.
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bikes
Old 04-27-2008, 08:45 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 EDIT after seeing stack sizes the villan should spam call.
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Robb
Old 04-27-2008, 08:52 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
How many hands are the stats over?

If we raise to $4 pre it seems we're blowing him out of the pot. If we're 3betting more than AA and not stacking on every flop, then he's not getting the implied odds he thinks he is for set hunting.
Stats are over 130 hands.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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