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Some river "value" spots...

  
 
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BlueBull
Old 05-19-2009, 12:19 PM     Post subject: Some river "value" spots... #1 (permalink)  

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Posts: 72
BlueBull
Both these spots are probably relatively standard and I know misplayed at least one street in each hand (thats not really why I posted these though). But my river aggression is not what it should be - I know its a weak point in my game and I often bet when i should check and check when I should bet...


Hand 1
Villain is pretty tight. Around 15/14 over 100 odd hands.

Based on the turn action I honestly dont put him on 99. I would have to imagine he has an underset or at worst two pair if he called with something like A8 suited but thats unlikely both because I am not sure thats in his pf calling range as well as the fact that I have AA. I didnt think this through properly at the time and in hindsight I probably should just get it in on the turn - he is showing very real strength (risk of him folding to a 4 bet seems low) but there isnt really any hand he can have thats beating me.

So when he checks the river can I get called by worse or is he only ever calling with 99? And if I believe I can get called by worse how much am I betting? Do we go for the tiny value bet or do we consider an attempted "bluff lookalike" shove.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($27.00)
Hero (UTG+1) ($30.55)
CO ($37.10)
BTN ($25.00)
SB ($25.10)
BB ($5.70)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.25, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($2.25, 2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3.25, SB raises to $8, Hero calls $4.75

River: ($18.25, 2 players)
SB checks,Hero???



Hand 2
These hands really are common but I tend to find myself winning small pots and losing big ones in these spots.... Villain is 26/7. But sample is small... 40 odd hands.

How do I play the river? Would it be fair to say that at these stakes the risk of a 26/7 player check raise bluffing the river is almost totally negligable and therefore the correct line here is always to bet->fold. I catch myself in these spots wanting to check behind a ton because I cant see worse hands calling me but just as much because I dont want to open the action and allow myself to be blown off the best hand (despite the fact that I dont really see this guy being capable of a move like that). So dont worry to much about the specific hand.. are there any conditions in these kind of scenraios where we rather check behind then bet fold is really my question? i.e. Is it that bad to check behid vs some loose aggro tricky guy who is always gna slow play his trips here or do we still bet fold?

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($30.45)
Hero (UTG+1) ($55.95)
CO ($7.30)
BTN ($37.05)
SB ($25.00)
BB ($25.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, CO calls $0.75, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, CO folds, BB calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.35, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.25, BB calls $2.25

River: ($9.85, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero??
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Lucothefish
Old 05-19-2009, 12:36 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: Checking behind the flop with top set on a two-tone board isn't so good. You should be looking to get your stack in and that's not the way to start.

Hand 2: villain c/c'd twice so he's not got a lot. Often you're looking at a busted draw here (straight or flush), but can you bet for value? I'm not sure this is the spot to do it tbh, your only hope is for the villain to have a weaker king. What else would call a thin value bet that you're ahead of?
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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daven
Old 05-19-2009, 12:38 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 you have major leaks
thin value-betting rivers isn't where you should be focusing your attention.

Flop and turn play including bet-sizing would be a good place to start.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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BlueBull
Old 05-19-2009, 12:56 PM #4 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Sigh.. I already said I misplayed the hands.... (although I am not convinced about checking the flop in hand 1 being that bad to be honest). But ok. fine.. I knew that was gna come up so I conceded as much in OP.

Any advice on how to play the rivers?
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BlueBull
Old 05-19-2009, 01:01 PM #5 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Hand 1: Checking behind the flop with top set on a two-tone board isn't so good. You should be looking to get your stack in and that's not the way to start.
Since its come up... What am I hoping to be called by here? I mean sure the board is 2 suited but a flush draw is a tiny part of his range here. IMO betting this flop is folding just about all his likely holdings. Surely letting a turn peel off and hope he picks up something or decides his underpair is good is a reasonable play here!
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Lucothefish
Old 05-19-2009, 01:12 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Ok to answer your question I couldn't value bet either of those hands and expect a call from worse, unless it was a pathetically small amount.

As for checking behind the flop, someone has to get the mannies in here. If villain isn't going to do it then you pretty much have to. I've found that a bet of 45-49% pot will get floated by just about anything. Keep the villain in the hand, sure, just start getting some mannies in while you do it. IP this will look like a steal to a lot of villains.
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:15 PM #7 (permalink)  
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You're hoping to get called by 67, flush draw, 55/88, any ace, possible pp that don't believe you have an ace, 89/87
wow that was hard
also say EFF IT, DOING IT LIVE and ship the turn hope for two pairs to call you

hand 2 bet all three streets
oh man that was hard
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BlueBull
Old 05-19-2009, 01:22 PM #8 (permalink)  

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Quote:
hand 2 bet all three streets
We never call a river raise though right? (Well unless its like a min raise or something).
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Lucothefish
Old 05-19-2009, 01:22 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I discounted 67, 68 etc due to nittiness of villain. Was that wrong? My range here is PP, draw, or case ace. Also, how big could you bet iopq before you'd only get called by someone with a 4 or 9?
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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BlueBull
Old 05-19-2009, 01:27 PM #10 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Also, how big could you bet iopq before you'd only get called by someone with a 4 or 9?
Dont think he suggested betting the river (yet) ... he never got that far. shove the turn is his advice and I 100% agree... not sure what I was doing there.
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oskar
Old 05-19-2009, 01:36 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 For the love of christ, bet!

You haz hand: You bet monies!

As easy as that. Don't c-bet your entire range, but check the nuts...
So he folds most of the time... he'll just fold the turn instead most of the time. What did you gain?

As played get it in on the turn... what's the idea behind calling? You think he is 3-bet/folding?

Hand 2: raise 4x pre... more on the flop, more on the turn, and as much as you can get away with on the river.
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Lucothefish
Old 05-19-2009, 01:41 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
For the love of christ, bet!
Sigged. Thanks Oskar.
<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
 
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:47 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBull
Quote:
hand 2 bet all three streets
We never call a river raise though right? (Well unless its like a min raise or something).
fold to a raise on the turn or river, even if it's a minraise
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melinda1978
Old 05-20-2009, 09:03 PM #14 (permalink)  

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melinda1978
i think you should bet
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oskar
Old 05-21-2009, 08:50 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 On hand 1 again... I really don't like the call on the turn, but as played he is very unlikely to have a 9 or 4 in his hand... and neither are you. I could do one of two things: either bet 1/2 pot /gross fold - but you're not getting raised there very often, or tank for some time / overbet - trying to induce a hero call from a smaller set or 2 pair.
Did I say that I think that was a really bad turn call already?
The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
 
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BlueBull
Old 05-21-2009, 09:37 AM #16 (permalink)  

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BlueBull
Quote:
is this 3.5x BB raise to small? Would you guys recommend betting bigger here say 6X or 8X. Would you consider just shipping it?
LOL....

I think I get the message.. I think I was the first one to say it!

To be serious I think I stopped thinking very hard when he reraised... it was kind of - ah - good - money is going in here regardless... and then one of the very few interesting cards possible peeled off. And I agree I wasnt scared of river but it made it harder to get the chips in. I did exactly what you suggested and tnaked about half my time bank and then shipped... 77 snap called. But I know I played the hand like a retarded monkey! I wont try argue the point.
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