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wonderland
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03-10-2009, 11:25 PM
Post subject: Some pre moving-up advice needed
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Hi,
Been away from the game for a few months but i'm back now. Just about ready to move up from micro micro .01/.02 ($2nl) to $5nl (6max).
So, i'm rolled but i want to know how/if i should move yet. I tried a game once and lost a buy-in, got scared and decided to get back into my old $2nl game before moving up (being away and starting to get back into the game by moving up and assuming your skills will just pick up from where they left off isn't ideal).
So, over about 11k hands my BB/100 @ 2nl is 10.98. I buy in for $2 and assumed i'd buy in for $5 when moving up. Does anyone think that maybe i could bridge that gap by maybe playing larger stacks at $2 or possible shorter stacks at $5?
It's a little scary jumping up a stake and opening 3 tables, buying in for each like BAM BAM BAM. The feeling is like: fuck, i've just put down like 8 buy-ins in old stakes here.
Perhaps someone has themselves moved from $2 to $5 recently and can reassure me that the two skill levels are completely identical?? 
cheers!
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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2-10nl play very similarly. players are all still 0 level thinkers, they just tighten up a bit it seems. not a drastic change, but enough so that u dont have 10 players every hand. If you are scared of moving up, why do 3 tables? why not just move up and play a single table, get comfortable, 2 tables, comfy, 4 tables or something similar? that way you can get a better feel for the differences between the levels.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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yeah, that's what i could do, buy in with maybe a shorter stack and just do one table until i get a decent feel for how players are playing in comparison to the $2 stake.
Once i'm fully comfortable again i shall probably do it that way.
thanks.
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St8ofN8
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 60
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JKDS gives good advice. You're not going to do well until you're comfortable with the level. Trying 1 table is a good idea or add more tables to you 1/2c for a little while.
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xpaand
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 289
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Yeah I would move up and just play one table at a time and REALLY focus. After a while, gradually add more tables if you feel your comfort levels will allow you to do so.
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OP: Beginner to Master
If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Don't at your results at all. If you lose a buy-in, fuck it. Keep playing until you reach your stop-loss. If your edgy about losing 'x' amount of dollars your play will suffer.
The play isn't all the different, don't change your game, don't try and outplay anyone (this is the biggest thing), just adjust accordingly once you feel everyone out.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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loonychune
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 145
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Sounds like your concerns are primarily monetary ones.
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The feeling is like: fuck, i've just put down like 8 buy-ins in old stakes here.
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But you will have only lost 3 BIs at new stakes!
You will get used to the money difference pretty quickly I think, just, like others have said: PLAY LESS TABLES.
I know dranger bought in for $2.50/$3 when he first moved up and his operation graphic tells me he's now on his way to 10nl, so, that worked for him. I don't like the idea of buying in short just because a) you're restricting yourself to playing 2 streets of poker a little bit and b) you might run good!
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loonychune
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 145
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Don't look at your results...If you lose a buy-in, fuck it.
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sound sound sound advice... but don't do what I did when i ran bad at 10nl though and ignore your database full stop when you're losing!
Just think, "i can still lose lots more buy-ins yet"... i reckon a 10+ BI cushion is a good number.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Another thing: When I first took shots at 10nl I had about 25 buy ins. Failed that. But waited till I had 30 buy ins for the next shot, and I pulled my way out of a 5BI loss to running about 10ptbb/100 since I got my head around things.
If you're a bit edgy on losing buy ins when you move up, I would suggest building your roll a bit more to have some extra cushion.
I found once I hit 40+ buy ins for each limit I felt more than comfortable playing because I don't even need to look at my bankroll during a session. Plus the % of your roll lost when you get stacked is less when you have some extra cushion, so it won't feel like much when you lose 2% of your roll as opposed to losing 5% or more at a time. I think this may explain why most people seem to do better near the end of their time playing a specific limit, as opposed to the beginning.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Remember, people will know you are moving up and play back at you constantly.
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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i think if you buy in for less than $5 because you are afraid of losing $5, you're not off to a good start. avoid playing scared poker.
as mentioned maybe you should build your roll to a point where you feel comfortable buying in and risking a full buy in cause its a smaller part of your roll. i.e move up with 30+BB or until you not playing scared.
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Remember, people will know you are moving up and play back at you constantly.
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How?
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WhiteRabbito
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptanes
Remember, people will know you are moving up and play back at you constantly.
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I think you are giving the micro-stakes players too much credit. I also think that there wouldn't be much overlapping between the 1c/2c and the 2c/5c games.
I agree with most of the other posters here. Start by playing at a single table of $5 buy-in. If it makes you feel safer, buy in for $2 here, and slowly work that up to the full ammount.
The Quality of play varies very slightly at these limits as previously mentioned, its not until 5c/10c that you see most players really making an effort.
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Mav145
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
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I don't think that there is very much difference in the play at $2, $5, or at $10 NL on full tilt. The $2 is a little under my roll and the $10 is a little over my roll, but I play all three depending on what is available. You just need to get some confidence in your game and go play. You are good enough to win at .01/.02, you will be good enough to win at .02/.05.
Good luck.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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cheers folks,
I think i will build my roll a little more then. So i can trully not play with scared money. Then go up and play one table and just observe intently.
Thanks for the tips!
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Keith
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,336
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when you move up and drop to one table , don't switch off when you fold your hand ..really focus on the play put players on hands make notes on their play andand really fill the time between times you do play a hand. That way you won't be taking hands past the point where you should dump them simply through boredom.then as soon as you are comfortable with the play add an extra table, you'll start playing more hands in total but same number per table and I found that that helped my play, but the single tabling had put a baseline in to help understand the play at the new level.
As for the play , I did find that there was a difference between 2 and 5NL. It help if you can find out whether people are multi tablers as there are quite a lot of people doing 10+ tables at stars.There will be fewer callers but still loads of fish stacking off with bottom pair.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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yes, that's good advice, i am guilty of switching off once i'm not in a hand, just wait for my next hand. Not always but sometimes.
Coz like there are so many times when, as you're watching, you say: wow, what the hell is this guy holding?? and it turns out to be second pair and you scribble furiously into the notes. Next time you're in a hand with that guy you have much more info on how to play.
So yes, more good advice, thanks 
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JKDS
2-10nl play very similarly. players are all still 0 level thinkers, they just tighten up a bit it seems. not a drastic change, but enough so that u dont have 10 players every hand. If you are scared of moving up, why do 3 tables? why not just move up and play a single table, get comfortable, 2 tables, comfy, 4 tables or something similar? that way you can get a better feel for the differences between the levels.
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5NL is a lot tougher than 2NL.. 10NL just a bit more so than 5NL.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptanes
Remember, people will know you are moving up and play back at you constantly.
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Leveling going on here.
Remember people will NOT know you are moving up, so don't over-adjust. Don't see monsters under the bed and don't make hero call because you think they're all trying to bluff you.
Pay attention to what's going on around you - identify where your edge is, try to get in good situations and exploit your edge. And fold more. Specifically, whenever you cannot see which move will be clearly +EV for you, stop putting money in the middle. Just check or fold.
As long as you play only a single table play short sessions so you don't get bored and start spewing off on random medium-strength hands that don't justify the action you're giving them. Mix in short sessions with session reviews and villain profiling. Try to find out how to exploit the villains you are now just learning about.
If you do these things you'll soon be one of the people who say that there's little if any difference between 2nl and 5nl.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Triptanes
Remember, people will know you are moving up and play back at you constantly.
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LOL
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Wait until 25 buy-ins to move up, it'll make you feel much more comfortable.
When you move up, don't just play 1 table.. do exactly what you are doing now.. playing 1 table can make the short term losses seem amplified.. which will tilt you.
Play standard ABC poker through all micros. Usually when they act strong they are.. there really isn't much bluffing going on at these stakes. The bluffers, however, are really easy to spot. They run like 80/30/8.0.
Really the best advice I can give is if you don't have 2-pair or better.. fold to a reraise on the flop.. this will make life much easier on you. The money people throw at you alone will make you a big winner through 10NL.. so don't spew and you are golden.
And last but not least.. make sure you have read all of the guides for your particular game! Make sure you spend at least equal amounts of time studying the game as you do playing.
GL and keep us updated!
O
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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Some excellent advice there Outlaw.
I did have my first shot at just the one table of binned a buy in in about one hour. Hurt like hell. And this could have been coz i was only doing one table and got bored. Playing one table can be bad if you suffer from 'fold boredom'.
Anyone got any counter arguements to the number of tables played when moving up?
Where's Spoon and Stacks when you need them??? Guys, come back!
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loonychune
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 145
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Quote:
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Anyone got any counter arguements to the number of tables played when moving up?
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Answer:
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. Playing one table can be bad if you suffer from 'fold boredom'.
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I said play less because i'm not thinking about things enough when I play 6, so moving up and playing 6 is pointless (and potentially roll-destroying). I went from 6 to 4 and should probably be playing 2 or 3 until I improve processing my thoughts in-play and observing my opponents, but 4 is gonna have to do else i'd get bored.
I think others suggested playing less tables just because you aren't comfortable with the value of money at 5nl yet, so you're risking less being at 1 table.
Either way you've gotta say to yourself: how much can I afford to lose and am I likely to do better or worse playing fewer tables.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Hey man, I recently moved up to 5nl (a few weeks ago) and its not different at all from 2nl. Like seriously, the only thing different is, you might get one nit at ur table now regularly. Other then that, you see a lot of the same donks from 2nl playing at ur tables, and tbh, I see a lot more guys trying to pull some "fancy" bluff because they feel they have to.
YOU DONT HAVE TO
Thats like the biggest thing. Play the some *bleeping* game as you did at 2nl. Don't reduce number of tables below 2-4, you will want to blow your brains out 1 tabling.
Good luck (even though you really dont need it vs these guys  )
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WhiteRabbito
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 8
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How about having three 2NL tables open, and a single 5NL ?
This might help you to see how similar the games are, and not get scared by putting this 5NL game up on a pedestal of greatness.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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thanks fella, i needed someone who has specifically moved up from 2 to 5 recently. It's a good insight to hear first hand.
well, i hope they are the same, coz i've played against some wonderful losers over the past few games. $$ has gone right up.
Watched a 400nl video today (the one linked here at FTR front page vid links) and even they seemed to get donk bets etc. who the hell buys in for $400 and makes silly plays??!! i can be nitty at $2!
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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fuck.
Just playing 0.2/0.5 and as far as i can see it's like 3 times more difficult that .01/.02. I mean tangibly harder.
People play way tighter.
although that said, i just played a hand with a villain who went to show down with me, both paired our king (he'd called a small PF raise) but my kicker was a suited queen and his was an off suit 3!
Also, just seen someone who had big slick and merely completed the small blind to my right.
So, i haven't got a clue how to appraise the situation. I think people seem tight and bet as though they are, yet they don't seem to be holding any cards??
Anyone else heard of this phenomena?
SIDE NOTE: ok, so i just doubled up and am two tabling now. This is the score (oh, this is about 20 mins later) ... people play equally bad at these stakes... but bad in a WEIRD way that i'm still adjusting to.
Or it could just be psychology of seeing larger amounts of money at the table? again, feels weird to play.
E.g. I had pocket rockets and raise 4x. Idiot calls. Flop sees nothing higher than an 8. I bet about 3/4 of the pot. Idiot calls. Turn, bit of a straight draw, but he'd have to have called with 57. I bet similar again. River we get it all in. He turns over Q5o!
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ArcadianRock
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 295
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I think it was your table. I've played 5NL and it's...really no different, people do play a bit tighter but you'll still be averaging more money than on 2NL. People will still announce their hand to you so you'll save a lot of money. Even if you just steal the blinds more often you'll pick up $.07 each time compared to just the $.03 at $2NL and if you can do that a couple times each round on multiple tables, hell I'd pick that any day over flipping suckouts.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
fuck.
Just playing 0.2/0.5 and as far as i can see it's like 3 times more difficult that .01/.02. I mean tangibly harder.
People play way tighter.
although that said, i just played a hand with a villain who went to show down with me, both paired our king (he'd called a small PF raise) but my kicker was a suited queen and his was an off suit 3!
Also, just seen someone who had big slick and merely completed the small blind to my right.
So, i haven't got a clue how to appraise the situation. I think people seem tight and bet as though they are, yet they don't seem to be holding any cards??
Anyone else heard of this phenomena?
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I had the same problem. I moved up to 5nl, after crushing 2nl very handily. I would pick a table and squat.
That was my problem. If you pay attention to the table stats, you'll sit down at a 40% 1 dollar table, and then all of a sudden it's a 19% 45cent table after about 30 minutes. All you're going to do is trade money with people at that table unless you have a monster edge with reads and whatnot.
Because everyone else is chasing the loose idiots, and there are enough rocks at 5nl to make tables genuinely unprofitable.
It was staxxx that railed me, and was like. "Table selection yo!"
22% avg players to flop is when I get up and move. My BR has picked up since then and has been upwardly mobile ever since
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I like to find the tables that are about 6-10 down the list from the "primo" ones.. remember, all of the decent players are using the same methods to find tables as you and if you pick the so-called "best" tables.. as donks leave you will see TAGGs replacing them faster than if you lowered your standards slightly. This works very good for me as donks replace donks more often and I don't have to move as much.
Also, at these stakes if the tables VPIP gets below 35, I find a new table. (this is for 6-max btw)
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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ah, very useful information that.
what's the quickest way to find out the % to flop in pokerstars?
edit: while in mid play i mean.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
ah, very useful information that.
what's the quickest way to find out the % to flop in pokerstars?
edit: while in mid play i mean.
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Get Pokertracker 3 which has HUD built in.. it's worth 100 times more than the price.
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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oh i have that. But how can i check my table stats with it? in terms of in-game i can really only see individual's stats.
By the way anyone who's been following this thread, i absolutely KILLED at my first 'proper' session moving up tonight. I have had a pop previously and lost a buy in but i was well out of practise and was running without HUD.
I got SO many people all-in who often had god awful hands. Made like $12.50 in just over two hours two-tabling. It was the same deal as .01/.02 in that you'd see people turn over second pair weak kicker and shit.
Lordy i hope it's like this all the time :P
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Yes, it is.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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cool wonderland. Congrats.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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