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Some hands at NL10

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Raoni_Poker

01-13-2010, 01:07 PM Post subject: Some hands at NL10

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Netherlands

Posts: 265

Hi all,

I'm currently reading the first volume of Harrington's book on cash games and I've been trying to apply some of its guidelines in my game. I'm still in the beginning of the book but there are some concepts that can be applied (like the far ahead/far behind).

One of my leaks that I'm working on is that sometimes I get too suspicious about my opponents bets...and I was investing big money with small hands.

At first, when I was trying to apply these concepts, I noticed that I became less aggressive on the flop, but I managed to lose less money. Even though I was break even for the last 600 hands (since I tried to apply the concepts), I think I managed to minimize my losses.

I'm posting some hands of this session and hopefully you can help me with some advice.

HAND 1:
Villain was 17/10 over 200 hands and seems to be aware of position. Is this a huge flaw not betting here? In retrospect, I should bet to extract value from lower pairs. However, as I was OOP, I chose to check-call to extract value from a bluff and lower pairs and keep the pot controlled. Villain checks behind...this villain was betting only 18% of the flops and he could fold to a bet here (he folds 70%). Apparently, he would never bluff in this spot.
I bet turn, he calls. A scary card comes on the river and I try a blocking bet. Unfortunately, he raises and there is nothing I can do about it...he would not bluff here. My guess is that he improved his hand on the river (77, 9x, A4). Not betting the flop was a mistake here? What would you do differently?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($10.90)
SB ($7.25)
Hero (BB) ($9.10)
UTG ($10)
MP ($7.17)
CO ($21.39)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10

, 10

3 folds, Button bets $0.35, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.75) 5

, 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.75) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.65, Button calls $0.65

River: ($2.05) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.72, Button raises $2.10, Hero folds

Total pot: $3.49

Results below:
Button didn't show
Outcome: Button won $4.70

HAND 2:
I get JJ and raise a limper. Villain is a standard donkey and is running 64/0 over 12 hands. The bet on the flop was to put a price in possible draws...he would bet here if he had top pair (Q). In the turn, the board pairs and he checks. He would check here with the top and the bottom of his range, so...I check behind. In the river, a K comes and he bets, i fold. He either has a T or a K here and my hand isnt strong enough to call. Should I call here? Should I bet the turn? What would you do differently?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.91)
SB ($9.90)
BB ($7.84)
UTG ($8.01)
Hero (MP) ($10.44)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J

, J

UTG calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) 8

, Q

, 10

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.67, UTG calls $0.67

Turn: ($2.49) 10

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.49) K

(2 players)
UTG bets $1.24, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.49

Results below:
UTG didn't show
Outcome: UTG won $3.61

HAND 3:
This seems to be a classical example of way ahead/way behind. Instead of lead the betting (as I would do), I check to extract value from weaker holdings (lower pairs and bluffs) and to keep the pot controlled. Villain was 57/35 over 60 hands and was playing very aggressive. A huge chunk of his range is bluffs and mid pairs. In the turn, I check again and he throws a second barrel. It is either a bluff or he has a K here. I fold. How would you play here? SHould I lead the betting on the flop? Should I call turn?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($9.85)
SB ($6.25)
BB ($13.80)
Hero (UTG) ($10.15)
MP ($2.19)
CO ($6.66)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, Q

Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.30) K

, 9

, 5

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.65, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.65

Turn: ($2.60) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.30, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.60

Results below:
CO didn't show
Outcome: CO won $3.77

HAND 4:
Villain was 59/21. I call pre flop following Harringtons guidelines (I know many of hise recommendations are not fully applicable to micro games, but I decided to give a shot).
The call on the flop is questionable, but he was betting 60% of the flops (too high if you're supposed to hit the flop around 30% of the times). I called because I had position and he would check to me if this was a bluff. He bets again, I fold.

The call on the flop is wrong here? How do you play the hand?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($1.99)
SB ($9.06)
BB ($5.23)
UTG ($21.25)
MP ($9.85)
Hero (CO) ($11.48)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9

, 8

1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, BB checks

Flop: ($0.40) 5

, Q

, 8

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.20) A

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.60, MP raises $3, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.40

Results below:
MP didn't show
Outcome: MP won $4.68

Thank you for your attention. This is a long post...

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XTR1000

01-13-2010, 02:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point

#1 You´re thought process is flawed. You can´t elect to c/c to capitalize on his bluffs and then say he doesnt bluff anyway. Put him on a range thats getting narrower streets by street, action by action. Guessing hands that could fit the final action taken is not considered putting people on a range. Would 77 check back the flop? Would he raise A4 preflop?

That being said calling preflop is fine. By 3betting you´re likely to create a very strong range on his part vs which you won´t do all that well. Vs his initial range your doing well and can figure to have decent equity on this flop, you even have a read on his cbetting frequencies so act accordingly and bet/fold the flop to max your value.

#2 You can profitably b/f the flop near pot. Your sizing doesn´t "price draws", your offering decent odds to all sorts of 8+ out draws. You´d need a solid read on his donk betting ranges to assume he´d bet Qx every time on this flop. since his range contains so many draws that didnt improve Id definetly bet turn. River is prob a fold as played.

#3 You hand reading is incomplete. Given reads the villian may also hold 99, 66, 55, 78, K9 and maybe K6, K5 even as value hands in add to "either a bluff or he has a K". Imo he is either aggro and loose enough to call at least two streets or he isn´t in which case Id rather do the betting myself.

#4 Raise preflop, isolate the drooler. as played, put him on a range of hands. Just putting people "either a bluff or not" is a good concept to spend the next year playing micros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

Raoni_Poker

01-14-2010, 04:16 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Netherlands

Posts: 265

Nice comments, thanks

I agree with you about pretty much everything you wrote. In this particular session I was trying to adjust to some strategies pointed out by Harrington. However, even though these strategies minimized my losses (I was calling less when losing), I became much more passive than I was.

In more recent sessions I tried to be a bit more aggressive and it seems to work.

About hand 4, this line is recommended by Harrington in deep cash games (starting from 100BBs)...see a multiway cheap flop with suited connectors. To be honest, I dont know if this is +EV in comparison with the strategy of isolating limpers. I prefer to isolate with higher cards, like KJ, TJ, KQ because I'm ahead of their range most of the time (when they call). I believe that it is interesting to play such a hand in a multiway pot and I see it all the time in High stakes poker.

About putting an opponent in a range, which is being defined each street...this is difficult to do (and I play only 4 tables at a time). I wonder how do you do it, do you have any tips or interesting articles about it?

Such analysis seems to be much more easy to do in live poker, but online action is just too fast to do it. I usually try to define whether or not I'm beatin each street...but this is not hand reading at all.

When I'm reviewing a session I try to put opponents in range using the hand range tool from HEM...but I cant see how I could do this complex analysis in a middle of a hand (or 4 hands at the same time).

XTR1000

01-14-2010, 08:40 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

I disagree with Harrington on limping in #4. He does have a point, that hands like 98s do well in multiway pots and that those hands lose value in heads up pots. However, there is a huge fish at your table which has already entered the pot. You want to have that guy for yourself and not "share" the fish´s dead money with other players and vs his presumably ridic wide range you can easily play your hand for more than flushes and straights, vs weak players almost any pair should be worth at least one street of value.

On putting people on ranges I can only say: practice, practice, practice. The really important thing is, to create ranges that are consistent over subsequent streets. Always start preflop when you´re putting players on a range and go from there. If you haven´t yet, get pokerstove. Click on "Player" and select the "Preflop" tab. Spend some time playing around, think about your own ranges and see to which % of hands they correspond until you get a feel for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

JKDS

01-14-2010, 10:00 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

@putting ppl on ranges while playing

This will never be anywhere near as accurate as you might do in analysis afterwards. You dont have to count every single combination of each hand in villains range at the table...however you do have to have some idea of which parts of his range are more likely than others, and what villain is likely to do with them. You can estimate a guys range to be {Axs, broadways, some sc's, 22-77} in a second, and then determine what he does with each in a few more seconds. Then if some shit happens, you go and analyze the hand and then realize "hey, there werent anywhere near as many Axs hands as i originally thought" and thus improve your ability to put villain on a range later.

@hand 4: Im confused on you're reads. Do you mean his cbet percent is 60%? Or that 60% of the time when he sees a flop he bets out?

If its the latter i'm limping behind. The former im isolating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

Raoni_Poker

01-14-2010, 10:31 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Netherlands

Posts: 265

Yes, he was betting on 60% of the flops. I rather to use %flop bet and %fold to flop bet in my HUD instead %of Cbets and fold to Cbets. In terms of sample it is more precise and it can be easier (I think) to put them on a range (if a player bets 30% on the flop, you can assume that he wont bluff very much. On the opposite side, a player betting 60% has a lot of draws, PPs and missed flops in his range).

surviva316

01-14-2010, 11:51 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2009

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Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

didn't really read much beyond hand 1, and didn't read the responses, but here are my $.02.

why would we check to the PFR if he's only cbetting 18% over 200 hands? we're essentially letting him see a free card with the parts of his range that can improve past us (namely, broadways), and we're like barely (if at all) ahead of his value betting range.

remember, the whole idea of checking to the PFR hinges on the assumption that villain bets with a wide range. when we're playing passive fish or the random weak tights who haven't heard of cbetting or if we're massively multi-way, or if it was like min raised PF, then donking into the PFR doesn't really exist.

as for the river, i don't htink c/c'ing to maximize value is good because just think about his range for a second. how often is he really bluffing the river? i'm assuming he's checking behind A-high, and he's prolly not vbetting much that we beat. i think you're blocking-bet/fold line isn't bad in a spot with a lot of bad options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

Donkafelts

01-15-2010, 03:16 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2009

Posts: 115

I read Harrington on cash games, and feel it isn't terribly applicable for playing micros 6max online at all. Alot of the information is just out of date, alot of assumptions are just not the case, and several of his sample hands are just awful. Its weird cause he for sure talks way more about mixing up play in unnecessary ways than like value betting thin or anything.

My recomendation: At micros a huge number of players will just call way too much postflop. Value bet thin against most opponents looking to get 3 streets of value with a pretty wide range.

xX zorrito Xx

01-16-2010, 09:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Wellington, FL

Posts: 300

Send a message via Yahoo to xX zorrito Xx

hand 1: i'd 3-bet preflop against a button raise in an unraised pot... if villian is positionally aware then chances are he's a blind thief... definately should've bet the flop... i don't understand what you mean by check/calling to keep control of the pot... you'd have control of the pot by betting actually...

hand 2: bet more on the flop... i see no reason to not bet the turn here also... you're ahead most of his range and you're open ended...

hand 3: given reads on opponent i would've bet the flop and turn... if you elect to check the flop then do so with intent to check-raise... not betting the flop is a bigger mistake IMO though...

hand 4: i personally hate flatting/limping preflop unless i have a PP... if i'm playing i'm raising... so a raise with 98s in position with a limper would've been a good play IMO as it would give you a chance to steal the button... if i don't feel like raising i'm folding 98s especially in a short handed game... as played betting the turn was a mistake IMO... what exactly could he possibly have that made him bet on the flop that you're ahead of now on the turn?..

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