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JoeHaw

06-27-2009, 09:13 PM Post subject: Small pocket pairs...

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

At 2NL, should I be raising ALL pps pre? Right now I generally tend to l/c 22-77 and bet 88+. What about facing a 3bet? I know it can be read dependent, but against your typical 2NL 40/20 are you generally laying down 22-JJ?

What do you do w small pps when you limp than get raised to 5 or 6x and the flop will be heads up no matter what?

Should I just stick to what I've always known and raise all pps and call regular sized bets and lay it down on the flop? It's very possible the only reason I'm thinking of being more passive with them is because my hit set on flop% is ~6%

(only 3k hands, but still) .

If someone could set me straight it'd be much appreicated.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($2.36)
CO ($4.95)
Button ($0.57)
SB ($4.34)
BB ($3.08)
Hero (UTG) ($2)
UTG+1 ($0.98)
MP1 ($1.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5

, 5

Hero calls $0.02, 3 folds, CO bets $0.10, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) 4

, A

, 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.12, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.23 | Rake: $0

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($1.92)
Button ($0.96)
SB ($1.57)
BB ($3.50)
UTG ($4.80)
UTG+1 ($0.82)
Hero (MP1) ($3.48)
MP2 ($1.30)
MP3 ($4.52)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 3

, 3

UTG bets $0.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.23) A

, 2

, 9

(2 players)
UTG bets $0.10, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.23 | Rake: $0

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BluffCheck

06-27-2009, 10:02 PM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 48

I would open with small pps instead of limping-calling, then c/f when missed. This gives you an opportunity to cbet and take it down on the flop, and your hand isn't so transparent when you limp-call pre then c/raise the flop.

Airles™

06-27-2009, 10:09 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 317

I used to limp/call with small pp's but then I learned how to play poker. Unless you're getting tricky with a big pocket pair against the right set of opponents, don't limp/call. If you don't want to raise 66-22 from EP, just fold. Limp/calling is not the best EV play so try to do it much less.

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Originally Posted by Carroters

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killerkebab

06-28-2009, 02:02 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2008

Posts: 149

As a general rule for now, if:
- The pot is unopened
- You have two cards
- You don't want to fold

You should raise.

JoeHaw

06-28-2009, 02:10 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Alright, that's what I figured- dunno really why I stopped raising them in the first place.

Thanks

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
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Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
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AFchung

06-28-2009, 02:56 AM

#6 (permalink)

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at 2nl with 22-77 i would just limp behind. if no one has limped or raised, then i raise it myself

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

JoeHaw

06-28-2009, 03:26 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: IL

Posts: 186

... wait. So I SHOULDNT be raising limped pots w the small pps?

What about raised pots? Calling, right?

littleogre

06-28-2009, 07:43 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airles™

At 2nl limping with small pocket pairs in ep is very+ev

Stacks

06-28-2009, 08:42 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airles™

At 2nl limping with small pocket pairs in ep is very+ev

At 2nl you can probably play 100% of hands and be +EV, or at least breakeven.

Anyways... When you open-limp, you are setting the best case scenario at seeing a flop with a hand that will rarely flop big. Not to mention the liklihood of getting isolated and trying to extract OOP is there, and sucks quite a bit.

However, when you raise, you can not only take down the blinds (good results), you can not only make a solid hand (overpair/set/oesd/etc, in which case the pot is bigger than if you had limped), plus you have the initiative, which leads to a few more favorable situations such as continuation bets/barreling.

Another thing to consider is villains at the microstakes don't 3bet as often, so you won't have to fold your pps to 3bets as often.

Calling a raise with a pp depends on a few factors. Things to consider would be (1) implied odds (2) villain's range (3) villain's left to act (4) position (5) etc.

(1) The higher the implied odds the more likely you should be to call. Generally, most people work off of the 15:1 rule, meaning you can profitably call a preflop raise if the effective stack (smallest starting stack) is at least 15x the amount you must call. [Villain bets $10 in a 200nl game, you can call if the smallest stack between you and him is at least $150.]

(2) Villain's range will affect implied odds, and also lead to other profitable spots. If a villain is playing extremely tight preflop, then your likelihood of building a big pot postflop increases. As he will have many more strong QQ-AA type hands in his range. So when you hit a set, you make more money more often. Also, on the opposite end of the specturm, if someone is playing really loose preflop, and willing to put in a lot of money with marginal hands postflop, you will have good implied odds as they will have a very wide continuing range postflop, meaning they will call/raise with a lot of hands.

(3) If the villain's left to act after you are aggressive, I'd be less willing to call preflop. This is because of the increased chance of being 3bet off of your hand when aggressive players are left to act. With passive players (or fish), I would be more inclined to call, as the implied odds have went up.

(4) It's obvious that it's easier to extract value when in position, rather than out of position. When OOP you will have a hard time not only getting value, but bluffing. However, in position you will be able to get in extra money when you are ahead, and put in less when you are behind.

(5) BLING BLANG BLOAW!

nish81

06-28-2009, 12:10 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

I'd have folded the 33 in your second hand, IMO opener shows strength by opening from UTG and well 33 is a pretty low pocker pair. But I'd have probably played the first hand the same way. in general, i might limp low/mid pocket pairs from EP, but otherwise i'll try to raise

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

JoeHaw

06-28-2009, 03:27 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

See, I can't agree based on what stacks said- which makes a lot of sense to me.

Not only do I have position on him, but the strength he shows is great news for when I DO hit my set and he thinks he's ahead with an overpair to the board or TPTK.

This is what I've gotten so far out of this thread (which I'm glad I started btw, because it doesn't seem the answer is as clearcut as I'd have hoped):

-Unopened in early position RAISE the low pps
-Call a 3bet so long as the 15:1 rule still applies after the bet and the 3bet isn't too large (also looking at reads here and being careful since I'll be oop)
-Fold to a raise and a 3bet before my turn
-Call a raise in position so long as the 15:1 rule is in effect.

My only question remaining is with two or more limpers before me (I'm thinking still raise w one limper before me) is whether or not to limp behind or raise, as I see the merit in both decisions.

nish81

06-28-2009, 03:58 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeHaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

I actually wrote that post out before stacks posted, but I got back home and saw it hadn't posted because I wasn't logged in. now that i've read stacks's post I might have called the 33 in the second hand. I still have this thing about open-limping small pocket pairs UTG though, i just did it an hour ago in fact.

edit: actually I limped behind in UTG+1, not open-limped

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Stacks

06-28-2009, 04:33 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Hand 2 is fine. It would be a more marginal call at say low-mid stakes due to the increased chances of villains left to act showing aggression by squeezing with a wide range, etc (which still doesn't occur all that often at FR, but for sure at 200nl 6m). In which case, you will most likely fold to the 3bet. However, at 2nl where the norm for players wanting to continue here is to "tag along" and overcall the open. Which isn't a bad result as you now have a large multiway pot with sufficient implied odds.

On the flop in hand 2, there is no reason to do anything tricky really. If he was cbetting often, I could see the merit of bluff raising, or more likely floating, but I wouldn't choose to do it with 33 here.

Hand 1 is where the problem lies. I would have either raised to $0.08c or folded preflop. And I would have most certainly cbet this flop, and very likely to have won the pot.

LawDude

06-29-2009, 11:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

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It's perfectly OK to raise small pp's from early position-- you should be aware, however, that it is also perfectly OK to fold them (and you should if you are in aggressive game and the players acting after you often raise).

Here are the things to understand about this:
1. Unless you hit a set, small pairs play best when you are in position. That's where you are able to make a judgment as to whether anyone was likely to have hit the flop and drawn ahead of your pair.
2. Unless you hit a set, small pairs play best against 1 or 2 opponents, because the greater the number of opponents, the greater likelihood someone got a piece of the flop.
3. When you are playing for a set, small pairs play best against multiple opponents, giving you greater implied odds.
4. Raising your small pair is ideal when you are trying to limit the field and win hands where your pair holds up or you take advantage of fold equity.
5. However, raising your small pair also cuts your implied odds and is likely to make your sets less profitable.

Lucothefish

06-30-2009, 08:41 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Lucothefish will become famous soon enough

You asked about whether or not to limp behind.

For simplicity, with 1 limper you should always raise or fold, and with 3+ limpers you should limp behind. Not always true but good enough for $2nl.

With 2 limpers, the correct answer is nearly always - raise. Unless one of the two limpers is a calling station (so you can go broke AFTER you hit your set), raising is preferable. If you have any FE, raise.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

LawDude

06-30-2009, 03:55 PM

#16 (permalink)

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I'm no statistical genius, but I'd like to see someone's printout that shows that the player makes a profit raising small pp's from early position.

I am not saying this isn't possible, but betting plays that are based in large part on using c-bets to get better hands to fold are quite risky out of position. This sounds like the sort of thing that players like to do because it allows them to be more aggressive and play more hands, but as John Wooden said, "never confuse activity for achievement".

nish81

06-30-2009, 07:05 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

5. However, raising your small pair also cuts your implied odds and is likely to make your sets less profitable.

When you raise your small pair preflop, don't you set the stage to build a bigger pot preflop? e.g. 5 limpers preflop in 2nl gives a postflop pot of .10, so you can bet .06-.08 with a set. but three people in a raise preflop pot has a .24 pot on the flop, and you can bet .18-.20 on the flop. granted more of the money in the pot is yours originally, but I still think you can build a bigger pot, especially if people who missed the flop in a limped preflop pot would fold to the .06 bet.

also, if you allow others to limp, doesn't it increase the chance of someone hitting a straight or flush with suited connectors that they might have otherwise folded to a raise?

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

LawDude

07-02-2009, 12:24 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 940

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

5. However, raising your small pair also cuts your implied odds and is likely to make your sets less profitable.

When you raise your small pair pre-flop, several things happen:

1. On average, the number of players seeing the flop will shrink.
2. The players who do see the flop will put in more money. In no limit, this will mean the pot will be somewhat bigger (though not usually monstrously bigger, because of 1).
3. You will have put more money into the pot.

Your implied odds are dependent on 3 things:
1. The amount you put into the pot-- this is the denominator of the fraction, which means that the more you put in pre-flop, the lower your implied odds will be.
2. The number of players still in the hand-- the more players still in the hand, the more money that can potentially make its way into the pot, and the greater chance that someone will have a decent 2nd best hand to call or raise your bets with when you flop big. Thus, by cutting this number, you are cutting your implied odds.
3. The amount that each player in the hand is likely to be willing to bet. With respect to this factor, the size of the pot created by your raise will help raise your implied odds a bit, because players are more likely to bet bigger when there is more money into the pot (although sometimes you can get players to stack off against you even when the pot starts small).

So, when you raise your small pocket pair pre-flop, you significantly cut your implied odds in 2 important respects, and increase them somewhat in a third respect. On balance, you are almost certainly significantly cutting your implied odds by doing this.

sarbox68

07-02-2009, 04:38 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LawDude

I'm no statistical genius, but I'd like to see someone's printout that shows that the player makes a profit raising small pp's from early position.

There are more than one entire threads debating this 'round here. A simple search will turn 'em up. Some keep 'em in, some fold 22-66, some replace 22-66 w/ some SC or Axs stuff, etc. I used to open any PP in EP, now I mostly fold 22-66.... maybe one day I'll go back to playing them again.

Two things I get from those various threads however - 1) the actual equity of the hand itself is low... most of the reasons for open raising small pps in EP has to do with taking the blinds, taking the initiative to knock down w/ aggression post-flop (usually by vils assuming you have better than you do) or to open EP raising range to make it more likely you'll get paid when you have a real hand, etc, and 2) nobody's got 22-66 in EP as a big winner, 'cause if they were we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Oh.... and open limping at micros is bad, 'kay.... but we all basically agree on that one anyhoo...

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