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Lucid

01-15-2005, 05:52 AM Post subject: Slowplaying Aces

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 142

I read in The Theory of Poker that it's sometimes a good play to just call Pocket Aces and Kings from early position. I have also heard this recommended on 2+2. Does anyone do this in NL? If you do then how do you play post-flop in this situation? Do you reraise if someone raises pre-flop?

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Greedo017

01-15-2005, 08:11 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

I am very new to poker, but i figure just just to test my own reasoning, i'll give my first thoughts (on low limits), and let myself be corrected if i'm wrong.

in playing low limits, I always raise moderately preflop with aa kk. It gets more money into a pot which is probably going to be yours, and it limits limpers gunning for miracles. It puts you in a position of power, you're the raiser. If you call/check preflop, you're more likely to not get taken seriously after the flop, you won't really know anything about what the other guy has, and you're more likely to be chased which i personally don't want happening on just top pair depending on the flop.

i can maybe see some situational uses of limping, but not under usual circumstances. everyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, i'm losing money faster than i can count as we speak so i'm probably wrong anyway.

silvertint

01-15-2005, 01:47 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1

What about if the third ace came on the Flop ????

montimus

01-15-2005, 06:30 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 154

I play a lot of 5/6 person .25/.50 NL and .50/1.00 NL...and I almost NEVER limp aces and kings.

Why, you ask? Because you allow junky hands to see a flop from the blinds and outdraw you. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've busted AA from the blinds by flopping 2 pair.

Aces will limp, I'll have K7o from the BB and see a free flop...K73 comes, I go all-in, aces calls, then aces proceeds to cry about it in the chat window.

If someone insists on seeing a flop with junk, you've got to make them pay to see it when you have aces. At a NL table, the minimum bet I make preflop with AA, KK or QQ is 3 bucks, and depending on the play of the table, it may be more...

Sometimes, if can payoff to limp when a maniac has made a big raise preflop and everyone else has folded, but chances are if he's got a hand he likes since he made such a big bet and will go all-in with you if you go ahead and push right there.

Now, if I'm playing against a *good* player who raised ahead of me when I had aces, I'm going to push him back hard. Let's say he raises 2 bucks ahead of me, I'm going to make it 6 bucks to go. You're either going to force him to pay 4 more bucks to see a hands he seemingly already likes, or you're going to take his 2 dollars right there and be done with it.

The less people there are at the table, the "safer" it is to limp aces...but I never really consider limping aces to be safe.

zenbitz

01-15-2005, 07:45 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 2,911

Depends on the table, and the game. Generally, you are looking to limp-reraise. This is only mandated when the table is very tight, so that if your standard 3xBB PFR steals the binds, you want to get some callers.

Obviously, it depends on the blinds (in a tourney) and stack size as well.

In NL, you generally want to get an all-in caller preflop with AA or KK. If you can't get that, then a few callers of a decent raise. If you can't get that, limp, and hope for a no draw flop that hits someone agressive enough to bet top or lower pair. (Obviously, you have to avoid getting hosed if you hold KK and an A shows up on the flop - still, better to bet until you are reraised).

Generally, against "bad" players you want them to call your raise (i.e. bet for value); against "good" (tight aggressive) players, you want to trap them in to betting into you.

Limp-reraising AA/KK is also a good reason to have a few other hands you limp with (lower pockets, suited connectors) to mask. If you are open raising everything (e.g., aggressive in a tourney) open raise AA/KK exactly the same way.

BreakfastMan

01-18-2005, 03:04 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Bedford, Nova Scotia, Canada

Posts: 121

Pre flop with AA or KK, I think we all want to achieve two things. Get as much money in the pot as possible and limit the number of players who see the flop. IMO how these two goals are achieved is all based on your position and the table you are playing. I see three way of playing this, which may achieve the dual objective of maximizing the pot and minimizing the field.

First, the fairly standard 3-4x BB raise. If you are in early position on a full table of tight players you might get one or two callers. In late position on a tight table, assuming no raises before you might get one or no callers. So, on a tight table this should minimize the field, but you may or may not have been able to get more into the pot with a limp/re-raise.

On a loose table, this should give you several callers and a achieve your objective of maximizing the pot, unfortunately, many players may see the flop, since you won’t have much of a chance of re-raising after a 3-4x BB raise.

Second, limp with the intention of re-raising. The only time this would make sense to me is when you are in early position and fully expect someone after you to raise. I would never do this in late position, simply because everyone might call, and you haven’t limited the field at all.

Third, in early or middle position make a min raise with the intention of re-raising. If I am in early position and I am confident a few people will call and someone will raise, this is the way I like to play AA. It gets a fair bit of money in the pot and limits the field. If the person whom raised was trying to steel the pot, then he will fold and it is yours. If the raiser had real cards, he may call your re-raise or re-raise you all-in. Either way you get what you want.

I have left out limping with no intention of re-raising since I never do this myself. I could see a someone making the argument that it allows you to see the flop and make a serious chip commitment then, and your hand would be almost perfectly disguised. It would in no way minimize the field, but in the end I suppose it could maximize the amount in the pot. I would love to here from anyone who does this. What kind of a table would you do it on and why? How would you play, post flop?

As I write all of this a realize that I play AA (and to a lesser degree KK) as follows:
If I am in early position I limp or min-raise with the intention of re-raising depending upon the table.
In late position I bet raise 3-4x BB depending on how much is in the pot, or go all-in if there is a lot in the pot with one or two raises before me.

Sorry for the long post, but it helps me to think through how I play various hands.

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

a500lbgorilla

01-18-2005, 03:51 PM

#7 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakfastMan

But unfortunately, too many people just flat call raises preflop with AA or KK for deception. At low limits, this play is often silly becuase you find out you could get all the money in preflop with AA v QQ or KK v AK.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

BreakfastMan

01-18-2005, 04:18 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Bedford, Nova Scotia, Canada

Posts: 121

So are you saying it would be better to just go all-in?

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

a500lbgorilla

01-18-2005, 06:24 PM

#9 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

I'm saying that if someone raises and you've got people behind you, you should reraise to thin the field and get more money in as the favorite. Unfortunatly, people will just flat call for deception.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

BreakfastMan

01-19-2005, 01:10 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Bedford, Nova Scotia, Canada

Posts: 121

Sorry, I misunderstood you the first time. Thanks for clarifying!

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

Thanks,
BreakfastMan

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