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Revolver123
Old 02-09-2009, 04:34 PM     Post subject: Slow-playing #1 (permalink)  
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I think I've identified another leak.. I try to slowplay but more often than not, I get sucked out on. When is it correct to slowplay? I thought this would be a good situation.. was I wrong?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($6)
Button ($11)
SB ($4.95)
BB ($2)
UTG ($9.41)
UTG+1 ($12.42)
MP1 ($12)
MP2 ($4.50)
MP3 ($8.29)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, 2
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.05, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.22) 10, 8, A (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.10, BB raises to $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.97) J (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.15

River: ($1.42) J (3 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.70, BB raises to $1.55 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $0.85

Total pot: $4.52 | Rake: $0.20
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Airles™
Old 02-09-2009, 04:50 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I raise the turn 3x his bet after getting c/r on the flop. I'm guessing villain has 88.
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d0zer
Old 02-09-2009, 05:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Yeah, don't let him get away with that weak-ass turn bet. You wanna get more monies in here to stack him by the river.

I'm more concerned with losing value here than I am getting sucked out on, but both are valid reasons for raising that turn imo.
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HarleyGuy13
Old 02-09-2009, 05:10 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I've lost so much trying to be sneeky I've totally stopped with only one exception and that is quads. I've lost to everything else it seems like so I've just said fukit. I quess if I flopped a royal I would as well but I've not come across that situation but I did have quads twice today each time getting the villians stack.
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Airles™
Old 02-09-2009, 05:12 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Obviously this is villain dependent but slowplaying isn't always the best strategy at micro stakes poker. Just bet out and be aggressive unless villain is an over-aggressive maniac. Players at $5NL are going to call anyway so you might as well get some value for your made hands.
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Sir Pawnalot
Old 02-09-2009, 05:45 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
I've lost so much trying to be sneeky I've totally stopped with only one exception and that is quads. I've lost to everything else it seems like so I've just said fukit. I quess if I flopped a royal I would as well but I've not come across that situation but I did have quads twice today each time getting the villians stack.
Yess! The poker Gods are punishing us whenever we slow-play. It almost never fails- the turn card from hell always falls down.

Either the turn brings a card that stops action: For example A when villain has KK, or 3 to a flush or 4 to a straight.

Or turn brings a card that leave us behind in the hand.

Fast and furious has always worked best for me!
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A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
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kb coolman
Old 02-09-2009, 07:08 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Don't slowplay. Just don't. This requires a good understanding of your opponents betting tendencies that are often waaaay off at the micro levels. The only exceptions are when you flop the monster nuts (boats, quads, straight flush) and you have a villain willing to donk bet 3 streets. In any case, your line should ALWAYS be to get stacks in the middle, weather calling, betting, or raising.
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mieczkowusc
Old 02-09-2009, 08:21 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I would re-raise the flop and try to ship it in if I could. If he has a set, you aren't in terrible shape, and against most other hands you have some good fold equity and a very strong draw.

Seriously though: Straight flushes, quads, and boats are the only contenders for slowplaying.
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AFchung
Old 02-09-2009, 08:59 PM #9 (permalink)  
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i don't slowplay unless i flop quads or have the deck completely wrecked. even if i have flop a boat i just bet it.
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bjsaust
Old 02-09-2009, 09:09 PM #10 (permalink)  
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You can slowplay the nuts when you have the deck so crushed that you pretty much only get value from bluffs or by letting them improve to good but 2nd best hand. Other than that, just bet/bet/bet.
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celtic123
Old 02-09-2009, 09:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Ive found slowplaying good the ego when someone gets sucked in. but bad for the ego when you dont get payed and are discovered. I believe in making ppl pay their cards. its better for your table image.IMHO. I do slowpay more often when I think my opponent knows me and has a good read on me .
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chink44
Old 02-09-2009, 10:11 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I think slow-playing is definitely villain dependent. Dont let him bet that little in to that pot on the turn. You definitely want to try and build a pot since you have the nuts here and if possible at all get it in on the turn
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dev
Old 02-09-2009, 11:27 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Don't do it. Assume it's just not theoretically correct, so that you have to come up with a good reason why whatever particular hand you're in is the exception. You should be able to go 1000s of hands without slowplaying once at the micros. It's almost never the best option.

Also, Don't post blinds unless you're at a FR game and you're in the CO. You're paying rent for a round of poker but you don't get the most profitable positions, it's a bad investment. It's like burning money.
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Stacks
Old 02-09-2009, 11:46 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I just want to note that I might have a different idea of what slowplaying is compared to some other players. I realized this while talking to a microstakes player in irc, and looking at some other players hands. For example, the hand I'm referring to hero opened with AK and was 3bet and elected to call OOP (let's not worry about the merit of that or not). The flop was Axx, and hero donked into villain. I just want to point out that checking this flop is really not considered slowplaying.

I just wanted to point that out because I've seen a fair amount of hand histories where individuals took a similar action and I'm just wanting to make sure it isn't really being attributed to the belief of "well I was told not to slowplay. I hit my hand, and feel good about it. I have to bet!". Betting is not the only way to get value. So consider villains range, and consider your hand, and try your best to predict future decisions, and determine the best course of action to achieve the result you want.
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Revolver123
Old 02-10-2009, 05:56 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dev

Also, Don't post blinds unless you're at a FR game and you're in the CO. You're paying rent for a round of poker but you don't get the most profitable positions, it's a bad investment. It's like burning money.
If you didn't notice, I was in the CO

Are there situations where donk leading is a correct play? Perhaps when you hit a 4 flush?

The only thing I don't like about the automatic check in the OOP is that the villain can get a free card if you hit the flop good.
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Old 02-10-2009, 07:00 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AFchung
i don't slowplay unless i flop quads or have the deck completely wrecked. even if i have flop a boat i just bet it.
Slowplaying can save money when we're getting coolered because we don't put our whole stack in by the river. Although I realize it could be a bad idea to base our play on that. Just something to consider, though.

Especially if we have JJ on a JTT board against several opponents maybe we should elect to bet since there are two tens out there, but with JT we should check and wait for someone to make a straight since we have less hands that pay us off. (there is one less ten in the deck)

But it depends on our opponents' tendencies, how many people there are to the flop, and SPR.

So maybe with a really high SPR like 30 it might be more correct to slowplay because someone could catch up and hit a small set on the turn (since this is a raised pot and not a 3b pot we won't expect someone to outdraw us by hitting a 2 outer), while with around 5 SPR a jack will be looking to stack off. But with an SPR of 2 we are not in a rush to put any bets in because we won't have any difficulty whatsoever to put in the rest of the money on the turn/river if the flop checks through.
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dev
Old 02-10-2009, 06:39 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Especially if we have JJ on a JTT board against several opponents maybe we should elect to bet since there are two tens out there, but with JT we should check and wait for someone to make a straight since we have less hands that pay us off. (there is one less ten in the deck)
W/ JT on a JTT board, a lot of the time we're only getting value from the other two jacks by betting. Also, if there are open-enders out there that are going to make a striaght later in the hand, we're still getting a call. By betting we may lose gut shots that might give value if a 4 outer hits. Still I think the best move will usually be a 1/2-2/3 pot bet.
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Old 02-10-2009, 07:12 PM #18 (permalink)  
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I almost never slow play anything unless I have an insane read that someone will bet... this will include flopping quads...

my reasoning is simply that there are way too many scare cards that could come on the turn or river that will kill all action... take your hand for example... suppose a heart came on the river... do you think anyone is paying you off as much as they would have if you raised the turn?..
 
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TAGurit
Old 02-10-2009, 07:16 PM #19 (permalink)  

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I slow bet when I have a good read on the table. Its risky, but I love the thrill when it works.
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Kijjo
Old 02-10-2009, 07:38 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Lots and lots of folks saying not to slowplay ever. I guess I'm the only one that sits down at tables that have that maniac that bets EVERY flop that's checked to him? Last night I had KK, raised pre, he calls. Flop gives me my set, rainbow board, I'm first to act, and ??? check. He bets pot, I call. Turn is a blank, and I ??? that's right, check. Dude handed me his stack.
If I'm the only one that runs into this guy at about every second table, well, lucky me!
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chink44
Old 02-10-2009, 07:47 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijjo
Lots and lots of folks saying not to slowplay ever. I guess I'm the only one that sits down at tables that have that maniac that bets EVERY flop that's checked to him? Last night I had KK, raised pre, he calls. Flop gives me my set, rainbow board, I'm first to act, and ??? check. He bets pot, I call. Turn is a blank, and I ??? that's right, check. Dude handed me his stack.
If I'm the only one that runs into this guy at about every second table, well, lucky me!
Unfortunately, when most of us check call all the way down to the river we let our opponents catch miracle cards to somehow river us and we end up losing big pots that we should have won on the flop or turn and tilt off
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Stacks
Old 02-10-2009, 08:40 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 I really wish individuals would quit using blanket statements. Saying to do something, or not to do something, with 100% frequency is often going to be incorrect. Poker is a game of situations. There are situations at 200nl in which it is correct to slowplay, just as there is obviously situations at 2nl where you can, and should, slowplay.

So it is my advice for everyone asking such general questions such as "should I slowplay at the micros?" and to the people who provide these statements with generic answers to, well stop. Then realize that most things in poker are not absolute. And it's because of this instead of trying to tell individuals when and what to do in such bland situations, we should encourage them to learn more about the concept in question, which will inevitably lead to an understanding of when to apply it, and how to do so correctly.

I mean if you tell me to always 3bet with AA, I say your wrong. If you tell me to always felt KK preflop, then I say your wrong. Your wanting me to never fold a set on the flop? Even that is wrong.

I mean yes, the above is good guidelines to go by. However, it's pretty much a cop out for individuals who don't want to think more about the game/situation.

Just my two cents
but I play bad.
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TonyB73
Old 02-10-2009, 09:07 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijjo
Lots and lots of folks saying not to slowplay ever. I guess I'm the only one that sits down at tables that have that maniac that bets EVERY flop that's checked to him? Last night I had KK, raised pre, he calls. Flop gives me my set, rainbow board, I'm first to act, and ??? check. He bets pot, I call. Turn is a blank, and I ??? that's right, check. Dude handed me his stack.
If I'm the only one that runs into this guy at about every second table, well, lucky me!
SNAP!

I think whether to slowplay depends primarily on four things:
1. Board
2. Villain's range
3. Villain's betting tendencies
4. Position

I've found a bunch of maniacs out there who will donk off their entire stack with something like TP if you let them, but will shut down as soon as you bet into them. If you're holding a monster OOP against this guy on a dry board, why waste it by betting?
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littleogre
Old 02-11-2009, 05:05 AM #24 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 it's pretty simple imo the laggy the villain the more likely i am to slow play. Against a passive player i almost never slow play i mean they just check behind to often.
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dev
Old 02-11-2009, 08:21 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Doing something like checking into a guy who c-bets every flop isn't really slow playing. It doesn't count, it's just what you do. You check everything, because you basically have position on a player who ALWAYS bets. Slow playing would be flat calling that and checking the turn.
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