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dreamover
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02-10-2006, 07:08 PM
Post subject: To slow play or NOT to slow play...
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
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That IS the question. And what then, is the answer.
My uncle who plays professionaly told me early of NL, "this is a trapping game". He also told me later, "I slow play all my winning hands, which is more risky but far more profitable".
To the point, my question is. Sometimes its just glaringly obvious you should slow play a hand like when you hit the nut flush on the flop, or when you hit a full house on the flop, and so on. But there are so many more hands where it is just a giant grey area for me. I tend to be a VERY cautious player, and I often find myself check raising LARGE on the flop. Like I intend to slow play the hand but once I see all the callers the gears in my head start turning, and Im afraid of somebody making a HIGHER full house on me, and things of that nature. How valid are those fears, and should I be playing the odds and slowplaying all those monster hands , and averaging out over time not worrying about the odd beat ?
Thoughts on when and how and why you slow play are apreciated.
Thanks !
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Don't slowplay opponents who will call off their stack anyway if you just keep betting at them. This is most of the players at the low stake games you will play. Slowplaying achieves only giving them cheaper chances to catch a hand that beats you.
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dreamover
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Don't slowplay opponents who will call off their stack anyway if you just keep betting at them. This is most of the players at the low stake games you will play. Slowplaying achieves only giving them cheaper chances to catch a hand that beats you.
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Right right, that makes good sense. But I think I'm finding allot of rocks recently too since I jumped from the penny tables to the $10 NL tables. I'm wondering what's the correct sized bet ? If I have the best hand and I want action what's a good bet ? Obviously all-in will generally get folded to most times so I reserve that for the river if need be. But what happens allot is I'll check the flop and I'll bet the pot on the turn, maybe out of fear and I get folded too. I guess I have a fear of the river from so many bad beats, but I lose allot of money this way I'm sure not being able to suck out.
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Fnord
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02-10-2006, 08:21 PM
Post subject: Re: To slow play or NOT to slow play...
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#4 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreamover
My uncle who plays professionaly told me early of NL, "this is a trapping game". He also told me later, "I slow play all my winning hands, which is more risky but far more profitable".
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Online/Offline?
Stakes? Effective stack size?
For the most part, people call too much and playing fast is more often than not the way to go as you win the max when they have a hand and mitigate the risk of being sucked out on and paying off big.
Many opponents are very transparent with bet sizes, small bets with weak hands, value bets (with slow play mixed in) for strong hands, over-bets are often bluffs (how can you call that?!?!?!) Throw in the calling reflex, paranoia, mistrust and lack of tells online and just pushing with the nuts is a pretty darn good line, more often the best line than you would think.
For a long time, I would just auto-push hands like T9s on a Js8c2s board. I got called A LOT. Now I often push JJ/88/22 here too and get called A LOT. Contrast this to slow playing and having a straight or flush card hit. You gave up value on the flop and ended up in a difficult spot on the turn. Another part of NLHE is avoiding difficult spots. Sure, great players find a way to get the most of them, but the best players avoid them when a better option is available.
Consider the amount of mony in the pot and amount of money behind. In a small pot, you have less to risk by slow playing, but it's hard to win a lot if you don't build something. In a healthy pot with little money behind, skipping streets is fine because it's easy enough to get it in on the next street. In a healthy pot with lots of money behind, playing fast is often best to mitigate the suck-out cost, get maxium value and getting a hand drawing live (as few as 2-4 outs) to fold isn't too terrible.
Finally, consider that many players make dubious calls for lots of money on a medium-strong draw. If you slow play, you fail to get money in when the other guy is willing to pay.
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dreamover
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02-10-2006, 08:41 PM
Post subject: Re: To slow play or NOT to slow play...
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#5 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 14
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreamover
My uncle who plays professionaly told me early of NL, "this is a trapping game". He also told me later, "I slow play all my winning hands, which is more risky but far more profitable".
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Online/Offline?
Stakes? Effective stack size?
For the most part, people call too much and playing fast is more often than not the way to go as you win the max when they have a hand and mitigate the risk of being sucked out on and paying off big.
Many opponents are very transparent with bet sizes, small bets with weak hands, value bets (with slow play mixed in) for strong hands, over-bets are often bluffs (how can you call that?!?!?!) Throw in the calling reflex, paranoia, mistrust and lack of tells online and just pushing with the nuts is a pretty darn good line, more often the best line than you would think.
For a long time, I would just auto-push hands like T9s on a Js8c2s board. I got called A LOT. Now I often push JJ/88/22 here too and get called A LOT. Contrast this to slow playing and having a straight or flush card hit. You gave up value on the flop and ended up in a difficult spot on the turn. Another part of NLHE is avoiding difficult spots. Sure, great players find a way to get the most of them, but the best players avoid them when a better option is available.
Consider the amount of mony in the pot and amount of money behind. In a small pot, you have less to risk by slow playing, but it's hard to win a lot if you don't build something. In a healthy pot with little money behind, skipping streets is fine because it's easy enough to get it in on the next street. In a healthy pot with lots of money behind, playing fast is often best to mitigate the suck-out cost, get maxium value and getting a hand drawing live (as few as 2-4 outs) to fold isn't too terrible.
Finally, consider that many players make dubious calls for lots of money on a medium-strong draw. If you slow play, you fail to get money in when the other guy is willing to pay. |
Some great food for thought there, thanks very very much for that.
What about when the board is a "danger" board. i.e. I've raised with AK off, and the flop comes AAK as happened to me the other day, and I know people are likely terrified unless they are holding KK.
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Fnord
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02-10-2006, 09:18 PM
Post subject: Re: To slow play or NOT to slow play...
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#6 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dreamover
Some great food for thought there, thanks very very much for that.
What about when the board is a "danger" board. i.e. I've raised with AK off, and the flop comes AAK as happened to me the other day, and I know people are likely terrified unless they are holding KK.
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This is a case where you have the deck crippled. Without a read changing my play, I bet here less than 25% of the time for balance, but usually just try to induce the bluff.
I'm talking more about stuff like slow playing 22 on a Q72r flop.
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ProZachNation
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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I odnt know much but I do know slowplaying at 10NL is dumb.... once I learned that I started making a lot more at 10NL. Certain situation can call for slowplaying, versus an extremely agressive opponent who will hang himself.
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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At lower levels you can just play relatively straight up and do quite well. E.g., invest more when you have an edge...LAG's often just don't believe you.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I find that good players can just see right through an obvious slowplay. In addition, it's hard to build a healthy pot if you don't bet agressively at it. I find that slowplaying is often good for getting an extra small-mediumish bet out of somebody, but rarely does it end up in a huge pot, unless it's a clash between 2 huge hands. Seriously, when you feign weakness, and then put a LOT of money into the pot, who can't pick up on that?
Also, I find that many players don't understand how often slowplaying allows somebody to improve to win, how much you stand to lose because of it, and how much this effects your winrate. I can tell you with 100% certainty that chronically slowplaying big hands is a recipe for disaster in any big bet poker.
That said, depending on the situation, playing a big hand slow every now and then can be a lucrative play. Sometimes you just have to do it occasionally because you own the board so horribly. If you raise preflop with QQ, get 3 callers behind and one from the blinds, and the flop comes down QQ5r, you probably aren't going to get anybody to come along if you bet agressively. The good news is you can't really bet AK here, so you may be able to pick up some nice $$ from somebody trying to buy the pot. Checking a huge made hand to a super-agressive maniac directly on your left in a multiway put is also generally a good strategy.
In any case, if you remember nothing else from my post, remember this:
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I can tell you with 100% certainty that chronically slowplaying big hands is a recipe for disaster in any big bet poker.
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twosevoff
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Flush
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 526
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[quote="Lukie"]Seriously, when you feign weakness, and then put a LOT of money into the pot, who can't pick up on that?
quote]
Fish
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Quote:
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I can tell you with 100% certainty that chronically slowplaying big hands is a recipe for disaster in any big bet poker.
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Amen.I once slowplayed a flopped two pair of AKo and lost to a backdoor flush draw.I would've been better off just pushing on the turn instead of trying to "keep him in the hand".This Fri I flopped Top Set Queens didn't push hard enough and lost to a straight.2 buyins for no reason at all lost.
Don't slowplay-the fish and maniacs will pay you off anyways,the rocks and TAGs will see through it and bail.Push it and push it hard.
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