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LawDude
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02-17-2009, 07:41 PM
Post subject: slow play
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Slow play is an interesting topic, because it is a second-level poker strategy (i.e., a strategy based on the predicted reactions of other players rather than based on the value of your own hand) and yet it is one that even novice players are aware of and tend to try to incorporate into their game. As a result, however, a lot of slow play occurs without much thought. Here are some considerations about slow playing a hand.
If I were to write a guideline about slowplaying, it would be this-- it is profitable to slow play when these three things are all true: (a) Hero's hand is extremely likely to defeat Villain's or Villains' hand(s) even if Villain(s) improve their hand(s) on the remaining streets; (b) Villain(s) are more likely to fold rather than calling or raising a bet by Hero; and (c) Villain(s) are likely to bet in response to a check by Hero.
Let's examine these things in turn.
First, Hero's hand is extremely likely to win even if Villain improves on the remaining streets. This is where people really lose money by slow playing. When you are slow playing, you are giving your opponents the option to see additional streets for free. Thus, let's say you have 66 and the flop comes up Ad Kd 6s. If you slow play your set and your opponent has AK, QJ, or two diamonds, you are allowing him a free chance (or possibly even two free chances) to draw a card that will beat your hand. Now, the odds are he won't do it. But you have the option of putting a high price on his draw and forcing him to either make a negative expected value play or fold his hand. Slow playing allows opponents to suck out on you.
Indeed, even when you are seemingly well ahead in a hand, slow playing on the flop can be dangerous, because it can revive a moribund hand and put it in a position to draw out on you. Again, you have 66 and the flop comes up Kc 7d 6s. Your opponent is holding JdTd. You slow play your set, Villain gets a free card, and the turn comes up Qd. Now Villain has an open ended straight draw and a flush draw, which he obtained for free on a hand you would have otherwise won had you not slow played.
On the other hand, if you really are way ahead, and the chances of a suckout are miniscule, slow playing isn't likely to hurt you in this way (though whether it will help you is dependent on the other two factors). The most obvious example is quads. This time, you have 66 and the flop comes up Ad 6d 6s. Now you aren't concerned about losing the hand-- the only scenarios under which you will lose would be if Villain holds AA and gets the case ace or holds Ax or a pocket pair of 7's or better and gets runner-runner. Straight flushes often meet the same criterion.
And while quads are an example of absolute hand strength justifying slow play, you can have the same thing occur with relative hand strength. Let's say that Villain is super-tight and only raises pre-flop with AA and KK, and he pre-flop raises and you call from the big blind with JT. Everyone else folds. The flop comes up Q-9-8 rainbow. Since you know Villain has an overpair, and is not going to beat your straight except with runner-runner cards, you can slow play if the conditions are right.
The advice I sometimes see-- "never slowplay anything less than a boat"-- is thus wrong. Whether you should slowplay depends on whether Villain has a serious chance to catch cards and beat you. That is based on your reads. If Villian has that serous chance, then you need to price out his draws. If Villain has little chance to do so, you can slowplay your made hand even if it isn't a full house or better.
Second, the Villain has to be more likely to fold than call or raise a bet. This is where slowplaying seriously goes awry in low stakes games. If your Villain is a calling station, why would you pass up an opportunity to get his money into the pot? And guess what? In low stakes games, many of your opponents are indeed calling stations. I've sat at tables and watched in disbelief as some player wins a 4xBB pot after flopping aces full or quads or a nut flush, all because the player was afraid that he wouldn't get any callers if he bet his hand, even though everyone has been calling everything down to the river for 30 minutes straight!
Indeed, if a low stakes player is not good at reads, I would recommend abandoning slow playing altogether. Sure, it will be frustrating if you hit a big hand and everyone folds to you immediately, but trust me, that doesn't happen as often as you think in low stakes poker. Until you are able to identify your Villains and determine how they will respond to aggression, you shouldn't be slowplaying. Indeed, there's also a psychological benefit to not slowplaying for the novice player-- it makes tilt-inducing bad runner-runner beats less likely.
Third, Villain is likely to bet in response to a check by Hero. This is less important than the other two factors, because if the Villain is likely to fold to Hero's bet and check to Hero's check, the reality is that Villain knows that Hero has him beat and you aren't going to be able to extract any value. Still, if you knew for a certainty that Villain will not bet if you check, wouldn't you go ahead and bet, because at least that gives you some chance of getting some of Villain's money into the pot? The point of factor 3 is to establish a presumption against slowplaying-- when you believe that you are equally unlikely to extract any of Villain's money by slowplay or aggression, go ahead and be aggressive and take down the pot, because that's the action that at least gives you a marginal chance of increasing the pot.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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Really good post which really hits home for most of us noobies. I have lost so much money slow playing. It took me loosing a ton, getting my ass bitched out constantly in IRC and some real serious talkings from a few of the regs to realize how -EV it really is in most cases.
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it  |
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cow344
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 24
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For slow playing I use when I got a good read on opponents. It can be both, good and bad.
Problem is you have to slow play to set a trap. Only problem opponent is doing same thing.
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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Villian always wins when he slowplays
Hero always loses when he slowplays
Maybe it's just me but I absolutely never slowplay..never, ever.
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"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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at BK 88
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 17
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Good read.
I have lost so many times slow playing, and after each bad beat (or really bad play by me, not protecting my hand) I tell myself I'm not going to do it again. Two nights ago I flopped top two pair and then lost because all other three players in the hand caught straights, and I was in bad position slow playing... Ugh!
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Very simple: don't ever do it at the micros. It's costing you money 99% of the time. If you miss a bet on the flop then the amount you can bet on the turn and river are exponentially decreased. If you cannot make up for that loss by winning enough smaller pots then you're loosing money.
And like ak you probably don't know what you're doing anyway. slowplaying top-2 in a 4-way pot is setting yourself up for a trainwreck. I can't think of any justification for that.
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floptquadswunc
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Posts: 44
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NL hold em is so designed towards trapping that it is usually more profitable to bet out when holding a big hand. I can't tell you the number of hands I've seen where one player has flopped the nuts and it goes, check-check, turn check-check, river pairs the board, and now nut flopper checks again, and last to act bets 1/2 pot (which is tiny), nut flopper calls (cause he ain't got the nuts no more), and one of them wins a very small pot. Just bad poker..... Excellent thread though.
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I don't slowplay
I induce bluffs
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jimmyallin
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Two Pair
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 31
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thanks for the info on slow play. I will try tonight.
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lockpull
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: OVERLAND PARK, KS
Posts: 303
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
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Truer words were never spoke.
I am mainly a tourney player and it took me awhile to learn this valuable lesson. I missed quite a few cashes trying to be cute slowplaying AA or KK.
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