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bspahn
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01-27-2005, 09:12 PM
Post subject: showing aggression preflop and keeping it
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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I seem to run into this situation fairly frequently as I'm sure most of you do as well: When I have a good starting hand, raise preflop (anything from KQ to AJ, AQ, AK, JJ-AA etc)
and THEN a less-than-favourable flop comes along, such as rags or pairing up with a higher overcard on board.
For example, raise 2-3x preflop with AJ and then the flop is JKx - I'm early position and want to keep showing strength, i've run into too many problems betting the pot at this time, but checking isn't an option either really?
Or if you have a high pocket pair and you get rags, or one over card (say JJ and a Q flops) - whats the best way to bet here if you raised preflop?
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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I'll get reamed for this, but consider minbetting.
You announce that you like your hand, you may shake people that were missed entirely, and you will likely be raised by a strong K.
Fun part: if raised, the obvious move is to fold, but you COULD fiddle around: a minbet is perceived by many [good] players as a possible trap. So if you thump it over the top of the raise, you're saying "haha! you fell into my trap!" (even though heshe didn't)
That's mostly for LeFous, but I still say the minbet is something to think about here. It will depend on the number of people in there, and your position w.r.t them.
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Iconoclastic
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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One question: where did you get the idea to raise AJ in early position? Rationale?
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What's the difference between a large cheese pizza and a poker player?
A large cheese pizza can feed a family of four.
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FlyingSaucy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Watching the kids
Posts: 1,603
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I like the minbet option too sometimes. It depends though. If your example comes up with AJ, and a flop of KJx, depending on the table, I would probably check it in early position. If a weak bet is thrown out, raise the hell out of them. Who cares if they probably have that KQ... you've got to convice them you've got AK or AA. Just think about what is reasonable to represent based on your preflop play.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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I meant the post as more of a general inquiry about raising preflop and then betting out to show strength, in the cases where you dont end up with TPTK or some other good flop ..
I'm very much open for suggestions, perhaps you are right and I'm playing AJ quite poorly, but afaik it's a premium hand and should be raised, I usually go 2x or sometimes 3x if it's in later position. By early position I meant more like UTG+2 or +3.
Is the concensus that AJ should not be raised at all, or only in late position - in that case how much would you raise it?
These are the hands I pfr with: JJ-AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ .. (the KQ only if suited) - any recommendations ?
How many people here employ a standard pfr of 3-5x with any of these hands, usually I've been raising more with the better ones and only 2-3x with the smaller ones (I realize 'good' players pick up on this but I haven't moved past 10c/25c tables and most wouldnt notice anything I do anyway)
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FishMagician
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 206
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As always, everything is situation dependent, but my standard bet here is half the pot. Should be enough to reveal any kings, and it's not too costly if you do get raised. Mix it up, though.
-Fishmagician
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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There are plenty of times, in small stakes poker, when you'll be at a table chock FULL of ragged acers, and raising your AJ is pure value. I say go for it, esp. when no one else has done anything interesting.
As for the general situation -- raising PF and betting the flop damn-near-regardless of what's in it -- it's alright but gets obvious. People quickly realize that you'll bet on any flop that you PFR'd, and will begin calling on flops that missed them 'cause they know there's a decent chance it missed you too.
In LHE you keep betting until you're raised. In NL you can't fall into any recognizable pattern. It's half theater.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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So it's all right to raise AJ but only mid to late position, or do some of you put in a small raise in EP ?
I think I like the half pot idea when you pair but there's an over on board, then the only thing you have to worry about is a caller instead of a fold or raise as you wont really know what the other person has.
I find there's very little raising, 3 or 4 betting at microlimits and it can get frustrating as I like to bet and raise for information but others dont play that way many times so it's hard to put people on certain hands when you're not getting the information you're looking for.
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Yeldud
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 149
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I have a few strategies that I like in these situations, which, as always, are table dependent.
1) Check raise - this will throw alot of players into the tank over thinking your hand. Drawback - no one bets and everyone gets a free card.
2) If you are in early position and raised pre flop (which I believe one of your examples referenced) very quickly fire out a pot to 1.5x pot bet. You will rep either two pair, top pair or trips. Often the table will fold around and you will take it down
3) Half pot size bet - you will feel out who hit top pair or has over cards.
Depending on the flop, I do not like min betting as you can leave good odds for drawers to stick around.
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If you put all your faith in the river, you are up shit's creek
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yeldud
Depending on the flop, I do not like min betting as you can leave good odds for drawers to stick around.
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Of course you're leaving those odds. But if you can spot the draws, mid pair is an easy hand to ditch when/if it looks like people are making their draws. Low risk.
Betting midpair hard into a field of any size is high risk.
I kinda like the check-raise thought. Drawback: no one bets? Not much of a drawback, since a free card is good for you as well. Nice play when you check and the guy immediately to yr right is first to bet. You get to put everyone to a cold call. Headup midpair is tolerable.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
I'm very much open for suggestions, perhaps you are right and I'm playing AJ quite poorly, but afaik it's a premium hand and should be raised, I usually go 2x or sometimes 3x if it's in later position. By early position I meant more like UTG+2 or +3.
Is the concensus that AJ should not be raised at all, or only in late position - in that case how much would you raise it? |
Forget that. I don't care what position I'm in, my AJ is the best hand until someone else shows me otherwise. If your raise gets called you can start to think about how to proceed, and if you get reraised preflop you can certainly lay it down.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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