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Should be a simple hand-- please help

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drtofu66

03-08-2006, 03:14 AM Post subject: Should be a simple hand-- please help

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Ok, I'm looking at this hand and I don't think I bet the river too well. I don't want to be weak-passive with TPWK on a draw-heavy board, but then again I don't want to lose a good chunk of my stack with it, either. I just sat down so I have no read on the villain other than noting that he's the big stack by a wide margin. I'm thinking he's going for the flush but I could easily be outkicked here. Plus, there's 4 to a straight out there (though that might've gotten him to lay down KT or KJ if he thought I had some 74 junk in the BB).

This should be an easy hand to play but I feel pretty shaky about it after further review. These TPWK hands do OK in limit but they'll be a loser for me in NL if I keep this up.

How would you bet this?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($31.55)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($12.65)
UTG+1 ($34.94)
UTG+2 ($20.45)
MP1 ($24.25)
MP2 ($22.30)
MP3 ($59.80)
CO ($21.70)
Button ($38.96)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, 9

. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.10) K

, 6

, 5

(4 players)
Hero bets $1, MP1 folds, MP3 calls $1, CO folds.

Turn: ($3.10) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, MP3 calls $2.50.

River: ($8.10) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $7, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $15.10

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NoctoZ

03-08-2006, 03:34 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 32

Dont bet the river. If you thought he was going for the flush then why are you betting?

drtofu66

03-08-2006, 04:55 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoctoZ

Dont bet the river. If you thought he was going for the flush then why are you betting?

So you're saying to check the river and hope he checks behind? I'm not arguing with you (I'm the one asking for help after all)-- but that seems to give up control of the hand. Given his stack I'm guessing that he's got an aggressive streak in him and wouldn't mind pouncing on any signs of weakness. If he pops back with a $10 bet I'm not sure I want to call that. Maybe he does have a better K and he figures I was betting a flush draw in which case he'd bet. Or he does have a better K but checks behind with his better K, afraid of a CR with 4 to the straight on the board (or two pair since I'm betting from the BB). It just seems to me that betting here at least has some fold equity and is the best play. I just wondered if a smaller bet would have been as effective. If I get raised on the river I'm certainly beat and I'd fold. Hmm, the more I think about it, this play seems ok and gives me the best chance to win (to my NL newbie brain, at least).

Maybe my thinking is totally off here and betting is only chip spewage. If I'm the donk in this hand, I'd like to know-- otherwise, I won't get better.

donkbee

03-08-2006, 05:28 AM

#4 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

Hands that beat yours will call the river, hands that don't beat yours will fold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

NoctoZ

03-08-2006, 06:20 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Sweden

Posts: 32

Just what Courtiebee said is what I tried to point out, and the statement is indeed true. Sure you hope he will check behind when you check the river, but your check can also induce a bluff and most likely you are going to call a bet unless its to big. You shouldn't assume someone is overly aggressive just because he has a big stack. You dont know for how long he has been at the table and now nothing about his playing style.

The point is that if he was calling with a draw, wich is one of the most likely options he will not call your bet. You said you wanted to control the pot but your bet on the river ins't even close to pot control. If you are going for a blocking bet you should bet less than half the pot so your bet was to big. If you think he might have a better K hand you either check and call or go for the blocking bet. I just dont see how your almost potsized bet does anything good. Even if he had a better K-hand he may wouldnt bet that big himself, he might even have chosen to check it down. And if he is slowplaying like a set or two pair or have turned an unlikely straight he will now raise you.

As you said yourself he most likely has you beat if he raises and indeed you have to lay down your hand if he does so. Thats another big disadvantage of betting, he COULD bluff-raise you on the river and you would have layed down a hand you would have otherwise check-called and taken down the pot with. This scenario isnt likely but still is something to consider. You simply dont want to keep throwing money in to the bot with this marginal hand. Look for a cheap showdown either by checking or by making a small blocking bet. I hope this helps you, and it seems you are actually trying to THINK poker, wich is great and will improve your game heavily. In this case I think your ideas were a little off, but pokertheory isnt cut in stone. Just try to make sure you constantly evaluate your play and also evaluate your actual thinking.

drtofu66

03-08-2006, 12:20 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Thank you-- this helps a lot. Pot control-- I wasn't sure what to call my feeling of looking back at that hand and saying to myself "Damn, I just bet > 1/4 of a buy-in on the river with TPWK. That can't be good."

And if I did have the straight, there's no way I'm getting paid off. Classic newb play of winning the least and losing the most.

Thanks again.

SinkRox

03-08-2006, 03:27 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Brighton, UK

Posts: 624

in the right situation (given images) i sometimes like to c/r the flop to portray more strength than tpwk is, though this beefs up the pot (which obv. isnt good here with a weak hand).

in this situation you want to keep the pot low. Hell if the flops 5+ way i'll sometimes even check fold tpwk.

BTW FWIW we pretty much all lose money with one pair, and only start making money with 2pair +

Experimenting - 200NL 5max.

"They say that dreams are real only as long as they last. Couldn't you say the same thing about life?" Waking life

drtofu66

03-08-2006, 06:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

This other hand has been bugging me a little and I was hoping you all wouldn't mind commenting on it; adjusting from SS limit to NL is taking some getting used to. I posted to the strategies forum initially (not hand histories-- my mistake) a couple of days ago with no comments. I just need to know if I'm worrying about monsters under the bed.

Villain is 28%/3%/0.71 over 32 hands

BB is $0.04 NL (Tribeca)

9 Handed
Seat 1 : Hero has $10.60
Seat 3 : Villain has $10.58

Hero posted big blind.

Seat 1 : Hero has 4h 4s
1 Fold
Villain called $0.04
1 Fold
2 Calls
3 Folds
Hero Checks

Board cards [4d 8s 2d]
Pot $0.18 [4 players]
Hero bet $0.20
Villain called $0.20
2 Folds

Board cards [4d 8s 2d 8d]
Pot $0.58 [2 players]
Hero checked (going for the CR, thinking he was going for the diamond flush).
Villain checked (damn).

Board cards [4d 8s 2d 8d Ac]
Pot $0.58 [2 players]
Hero bet $0.50
Villain called $0.50 and raised $2

I've been on the short end of this in limit numerous times and was wondering if being careful with a possible bigger boat out there is too weak/tight.
Should I be worried about A8 enough to just call and not push? And was it stupid to check the turn?

donkbee

03-08-2006, 06:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

I push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

drtofu66

03-08-2006, 08:07 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Quote:

Originally Posted by SinkRox

It probably helped that this was the first hand I played and he gave me more respect than I deserved. I was debating whether this hand was worth playing and was hoping to just take it down on the flop. If I had more than one caller I was shutting down but like the NL newb I am ended up deeper in it than I wanted even with the one caller.

Quote:

BTW FWIW we pretty much all lose money with one pair, and only start making money with 2pair +

Actually that is very helpful to hear. It's so counter to SSHE where TP is where you make a large percentage of your money.

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Should be a simple hand-- please help

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