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Vi-Zer0Skill
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08-07-2007, 04:56 AM
Post subject: Should I be leaving the country???
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#1 (permalink)
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Seriously, how soft are the tables at non U.S. online poker rooms? I am an American player who occassionally will start to drool when reading a HH from Party Poker, Hollywood, etc.
It would be an estimate obviously, but how much easier are the online poker games overseas, and would the benefit to my winrate be substantial enough to make temporarily leaving the country to go play online poker +EV?
I am interested in using online poker as an opportunity to not have to work for a few years. I feel this is metaphor is useful; like a Mexican worker moving to the U.S. for a higher paying job, no?
How long does it take to transfer ones citizenship?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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FYI, even if you leave the country, you have to pay US income tax on all your earnings for 10 years.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
FYI, even if you leave the country, you have to pay US income tax on all your earnings for 10 years.
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If he comes back....
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CyberNerd
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
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I expatriated 9 years ago. As a US citizen living abroad you do not have to pay taxes on the first $85K in income earned outside the US, so long as you do not reside within the US for more than 45 days per year.
In the country I live (Costa Rica), we are not taxed on income earned outside of CR. I earn a living playing poker online and legally pay no taxes.
If you wish to renounce your US citizenship, you must first obtain citizenship in another country. This isn't as easy as you might think. Once you renounce your citizenship you are still liable to pay taxes to the US for 10 years. (like it or not, you are the property of the US government). There really is no incentive to renounce your citizenship as you can become a resident or even a citizen of another country and maintain dual citizenship.
As far as the pokerrooms that don't allow US players being softer, from reading the posts by foreign players on various forums, they all complain that the sites have become harder now that the US players are gone
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Best first post ever?
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crazycrazy
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
FYI, even if you leave the country, you have to pay US income tax on all your earnings for 10 years.
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LOL. how abotu double taxation protection treaties ? dont u pay just in ur residence country then or US is so stupid that it want to double tax if u leave ?
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by crazycrazy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
FYI, even if you leave the country, you have to pay US income tax on all your earnings for 10 years.
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LOL. how abotu double taxation protection treaties ? dont u pay just in ur residence country then or US is so stupid that it want to double tax if u leave ? |
My understanding is that you pay your 'new' countries tax, however lets say you move to England where they do not tax gambling winnings. You will still need to pay US income tax for 10 years on your winnings otherwise its tax evasion and if they catch you you will be extradited back here for a nice adventure in a federal penitentiary. Also if your 'new' countries tax is less than that of the US you will be required to pay the difference.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Certainly there are many U.S. players who do perfectly well playing on U.S. sites. Those players tend to be very good, however.
When i posted this i wasn't attempting to smear any Eurpoean players on FTR , but i wondered since i can win solidly at 100NL on a U.S. site how i would fare in a 400NL game on a European one.
The tax issue seems as though it could negate the "EV" of accessing softer tables. Plus i have all my friends/family here in America so moving would probably be pretty lonely for a while anyways.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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-EV
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNerd
As far as the pokerrooms that don't allow US players being softer, from reading the posts by foreign players on various forums, they all complain that the sites have become harder now that the US players are gone
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On the motherfucking money.
Dear America,
WHAT ON EARTH MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER AT THIS GAME THAN ANYONE ELSE? When Yanks used to be able to play at Crypto I was delighted to sit down with several of them because they tended to be poor, loose players who'd tilt easily.
What has, without doubt, happened since the bill is that most of these players have quit; but most would have gone bust anyway. So the standard of the average longstanding American player on Stars and FT may be slightly higher than elsewhere. However, this is balanced out by the fact that when American noobs DO want to play, and make the effort to find a way to deposit, Stars and FT (and the other US-friendly sites) get to keep all of them.
Ever since I started playing this game, the hunt for fish has preoccupied almost every player I've spoken to or read. Human nature means we're desperate to find the easiest option; as a result, differences in standards between the various poker rooms have been, and almost certainly will continue to be, massively overstated. The reason for this is very simple; nature abhors a vacuum, so when one site is considered fishy, sharks will swim over there to get a piece of the action. The result: fishy site not so fishy, sharky site not so sharky.
The US bill has changed this, but not as much as some might think. FT and Stars are now the biggest and best-marketed sites in the world; this attracts a lot of fish from both the US and overseas. It's not like the foreign fish are educated enough, for the most part, to either deduce or believe the hype that the US-only sites are "harder". They just flock to the most popular, as a rule.
There are genuine reasons why some sites might be softer, the US situation notwithstanding. Firstly, the most heavily marketed sites will gain the largest number of noobs, as stated above. Secondly, sites with big sportsbook or casino operations may well provide more players who are used to gambling, rather than playing with skill (this is why Bodog has its fishy reputation). Thirdly, a lot of sharks won't play at sites where tools like Poker Tracker and Poker Office don't work (though the converse of this is that other sharks, who realise this fact and also the fact that they can be sure that their opponents don't have huge number of stats to use against them, should be able to make a killing in these waters if they really are that fishy).
But, regardless of the above, any genuine softness will swiftly become apparent and equilibrium will be approached, if not achieved.
In conclusion, I believe that the perceived fishiness of a site - which isn't a stat that's easy to quantify, it's almost entirely based on hearsay and anecdotes from a tiny sample of potentially biased users - is a very minor reason for choosing a site. More important are things like bonuses, traffic, games and limits offered, customer support, ease of financial transactions, rakeback, reliability and even the look and feel of the site.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Poker sites will become like the stock market. Value opportunities are there if you can get in and make profits before the other pros do.
BTW--renouncing your US citizenship simply to play poker seems a bit short sighted, if you consider the rights and benefits we have here compared to other nations, and the fact that online gaming will be fully legal someday.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Anosmic
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
BTW--renouncing your US citizenship simply to play poker seems a bit short sighted, if you consider the rights and benefits we have here compared to other nations, and the fact that online gaming will be fully legal someday.
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Sicko
Disclaimer: Don't like Moore at all, havent' seen the film, but it was the first thing to come to mind.
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sunnyday
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
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Originally Posted by biondino
Dear America,
WHAT ON EARTH MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER AT THIS GAME THAN ANYONE ELSE?
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thank you for that one biondino! it is this kind of arrogance which is at the root of the truly bad image the states have abroad. yes america is an economically strong country, but it is not the only one on this planet. also having travelled the planet quite some i have found that every country has their fair share of dumb and intelligent people. the states is no exception from this. i do wonder though what is wrong with that country when i hear 50% of its inhabitants are creationists? to me if anything this fact would suggest that people there don't care much for empirical data. surely not a helpful attitude when you are playing poker...
cheers
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Anosmic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
BTW--renouncing your US citizenship simply to play poker seems a bit short sighted, if you consider the rights and benefits we have here compared to other nations, and the fact that online gaming will be fully legal someday.
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Sicko
Disclaimer: Don't like Moore at all, havent' seen the film, but it was the first thing to come to mind. |
Touche'. I guess I sounded like the ugly american...didn't mean to be all US-centric. I guess my specific point was related to taxes. And yes, healthcare is only good for about 75% of americans, the rest often get screwed in some way. And our president is a bufoon...but don't get me started.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Anosmic
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Touche'. I guess I sounded like the ugly american...didn't mean to be all US-centric.
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Btw, my cheap point-scoring should not be mistaken for informed politcal analysis.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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find somewhere nice and cheap to live. How about north africa?
Oh wait, dont they blow americans up there. Shame, pokerroom itself is +ev never mind any other site.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNerd
I expatriated 9 years ago. As a US citizen living abroad you do not have to pay taxes on the first $85K in income earned outside the US, so long as you do not reside within the US for more than 45 days per year.
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Didn't know this, ty.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Don't forget that your income tax is higher in just about every country
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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yeah we pay 20fuckingpercent
gordonbrownyoufagdiediedie
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Trashcona
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah we pay 20fuckingpercent
gordonbrownyoufagdiediedie
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Is this a flat rate of tax? and is it only the fed rate? Does the UK have state/provincial taxes? Because if it is a flat rate and there is only the one tax, that doesn't seem very high at all. Granted I'm sure the cost of living is much higher anywhere in the UK then where I'm from but here, the lowest tax rate is 27% and the highest rate is 46.4% combining provincial and federal tax.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah we pay 20fuckingpercent
gordonbrownyoufagdiediedie
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I've read UK eff tax rate is pretty close to US, while Germany, Sweden, France, and Italy pay 15-20% more.
I also have read that highly compensated individuals keep significantly more of their income in US compared to these other countries. IOW, European countries tax brackets go up quickly as you make more.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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monkeyboxing
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Posts: 2
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trashcona
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah we pay 20fuckingpercent
gordonbrownyoufagdiediedie
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Is this a flat rate of tax? and is it only the fed rate? Does the UK have state/provincial taxes? Because if it is a flat rate and there is only the one tax, that doesn't seem very high at all. Granted I'm sure the cost of living is much higher anywhere in the UK then where I'm from but here, the lowest tax rate is 27% and the highest rate is 46.4% combining provincial and federal tax. |
There are two tax brackets in the UK, one for us normal folk and one for high earners. Also we pay 17.5% sales tax on everything we buy, although this is lower than many European countries. In addition all homeowners must pay "council tax", this is for the police, street lights, refuse collection etc. I am guessing that the average British persons tax burden is around 40% of their income. France and Germany are slighlty more, Scandanavian countries are much higher. Unless you move to a tax free country like Monaco then there surely is little benefit in moving
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNerd
I expatriated 9 years ago. As a US citizen living abroad you do not have to pay taxes on the first $85K in income earned outside the US, so long as you do not reside within the US for more than 45 days per year.
In the country I live (Costa Rica), we are not taxed on income earned outside of CR. I earn a living playing poker online and legally pay no taxes.
If you wish to renounce your US citizenship, you must first obtain citizenship in another country. This isn't as easy as you might think. Once you renounce your citizenship you are still liable to pay taxes to the US for 10 years. (like it or not, you are the property of the US government). There really is no incentive to renounce your citizenship as you can become a resident or even a citizen of another country and maintain dual citizenship.
As far as the pokerrooms that don't allow US players being softer, from reading the posts by foreign players on various forums, they all complain that the sites have become harder now that the US players are gone
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CyberNerd for President!!
land of the free, my sweaty arse!!
and, i think that biondino wants to live here, but is struggling with his inner demons.
bio, you'd make a good running mate for Cyber's ticket... 
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Dude, I love the States, and if I can work out a way to live there at some point (which might be possible as my gf's American, but isn't going to happen for some years because of my job situation) then I hopefully will! By which time poker will be a distant memory, I'm sure
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
yeah we pay 20fuckingpercent
gordonbrownyoufagdiediedie
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I feel like a good international citizen because i know who Gordon Brown is (by American standards, ofc  )
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I was completely unaware of any of the issues concerning taxation that were brought up in your respones. And to biondino i didn't mean to come off sounding like i thought many European poker players weren't as good as American players. You still raise many good points in your response; that the heaviest trafficked sites are going to have large numbers of fish since those sites tend to advertise the most on television when poker shows are being aired. Also that many online poker sites don't stay soft for long once word gets out that the site is weak, since many good players then flock to that site. So, i apologize for the unintended offense and appreciate your response.
I think i will stay in America after all
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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