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pankfish
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01-25-2008, 04:46 AM
Post subject: Should I be calling bets with flush draws on the board?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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I'm having trouble with this. If I have a hand like A J and the flop comes 8d Jd 3s, I should be raising any bet right? Or should I just call for pot control and evaluate on the turn? There are a lot of cards that beat me on the turn, a Q, K, possibly any diamond.
I'm almost sure that a raise here is the right play, but I'm running pretty bad right now and think a big leak is that I maybe overplaying hands while I'm ahead against opponents who have a million outs against me and are never folding. I've already moved down a level and am getting killed at a level that I used to kill at.
Is it possible to overplay hands that you are ahead in? I'm thinking on this flop I could call the bet to get the most value out of K J, Q J, J 10, smaller pocket pairs, etc. I give opponent a look at the turn if he has a flush draw sure, but I can make a bet on the turn if the flush misses and get called 75% of the time. Really raising the flop probably costs me value because it folds out tpwk so much of the time. Players at microstakes are so much more willing to stack off with draws than they are with marginal made hands.
My goal here should be to win the most money possible when ahead and lose the least amount when behind right? Not just to win the hand more frequently. So a call is probably a decent move here, right?
I'm going to start calling this a higher percentage of the time I think. I should be good enough to get away from my hand when I'm beat on later streets, but get as much value as possible out of my hand when I'm ahead.
I'm running so bad. 
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pankfish
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On Tony Romo's nuts
Posts: 385
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To make it easier to reply, I'll present a more clear situation. Villain limps in utg+1, we jack it up 5xbb otb. On the flop he bets about 3/4 pot. I could fold him out a good percentage of the time raising 3x his bet, but what is the point of that really if we are ahead? On a blank turn microstakes donk is probably c/c anything anyway. Of course I will have to raise any bet on the turn unless K or Q comes. This is the last bit of value I can get out of a flush draw, if he has a set wtf can I do? Just stack off I guess. I'm miles ahead of his range.
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<Staxalax> I want everyone to put my quote in their sigs
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I'm thinking a line like, reraise his flop bet, check behind on turn, if no flush on river value bet, if flush hits call a moderate bet, if he checks, check behind.
One thing I need to work on is to stop rewarding villian with implied odds. Taking away his pot odds only counts if we deny him extra money when he hits, but on the other hand we can always assume villian has a FD in this situation.
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if he has a set wtf can I do? Just stack off I guess. I'm miles ahead of his range.
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Do your best not to stack off with TPTK, think of it this way, villian would need to be stacking off with worse than that, and you need to be very sure he'd do that.
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Just playing to improve.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pankfish
To make it easier to reply, I'll present a more clear situation. Villain limps in utg+1, we jack it up 5xbb otb. On the flop he bets about 3/4 pot. I could fold him out a good percentage of the time raising 3x his bet, but what is the point of that really if we are ahead? On a blank turn microstakes donk is probably c/c anything anyway. Of course I will have to raise any bet on the turn unless K or Q comes. This is the last bit of value I can get out of a flush draw, if he has a set wtf can I do? Just stack off I guess. I'm miles ahead of his range.
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Well, if you think villain is limping hands like Axs and suited connectors, and you think villain would lead the flop with a bare flush draw, then it's okay to raise. It heavily depends on what villain will limp/call with from EP, and you're really the only person who can answer that question.
In general, however, if you knew 100% that you were ahead with TPTK vs a flush draw and villain bets into you, then you should raise. You want these guys to be calling you down when you're ahead because that's how you make money in poker.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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what stakes are you at? I have found that there are a lot of players that would be willing to stack off with KJ on a J high board pretty well all the way up to 50NL (though this is probably site specific as well).
spoon seems to have nailed it pretty well though. if he is limp-calling a lot more than small pp's (and then leading with these hands), then a raise seems good.
in this spot, if your opp is limp-calling a 5xBB raise from UTG w/ a J in his hand, then he is going to be willing to put it all in on a J high flop. Things can get a little tricky if he doesn't have a J though.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 276
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
what stakes are you at? I have found that there are a lot of players that would be willing to stack off with KJ on a J high board pretty well all the way up to 50NL (though this is probably site specific as well).
spoon seems to have nailed it pretty well though. if he is limp-calling a lot more than small pp's (and then leading with these hands), then a raise seems good.
in this spot, if your opp is limp-calling a 5xBB raise from UTG w/ a J in his hand, then he is going to be willing to put it all in on a J high flop. Things can get a little tricky if he doesn't have a J though.
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What is this wonderful site you speak of????
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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All of them except Full Tilt
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