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Warpe

11-11-2006, 07:36 PM Post subject: Shortstack implied odds

#1 (permalink)

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Would you agree that have better implied odds against a half-buy because they are more likely to get pot-committed than a full-buy?

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salsa4ever

11-12-2006, 07:52 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

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for me to agree, I'd have to be satisfied that a half stack is twice as likely to stack off as a full stack.

I'm not. So I disagree.

Assume they got AA or something. It's probably reasonable to assume a full buy is not going to try to blast you on 3 streets on a Q72 flop against your 22 so you can raise the river all in... but I reckon you can still get half a stack off them. And once in a while, they'll stack off.

And if he had AK, the full buy is more likely to try to bluff you off because he feels like he can actually exert some pressure on your stack where as half buy knows you have KQ you're gonna be felting it for 50BB

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Originally Posted by bigred

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well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

Warpe

11-12-2006, 08:13 AM

#3 (permalink)

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yeah, nvm I guess

It's just that I've been up against so many shortstacks who, after an obvious draw completes, still proceed to stick the rest in, that I'm beginning to wonder.

mcatdog

11-12-2006, 08:36 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: St. Louis

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I think you usually do, but not for the reason that you said. You have better implied odds against someone who sucks than you have against someone who doesn't suck. Most shortstacks play terribly and as long as they have anything decent they'll hand you their stack.

siknd

11-22-2006, 09:25 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 359

i see a lot of short stack experts who are waiting for that one spot to double up....so they can leave and rebuy with a half stack. they arent necessarily bad tacticians, just poor strategists.

therefore, i disagree as a general statement that you can more easily pot commit a short stack, since they will often hold the hand value edge before allowing themselves to be committed.

'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '

Fnord

11-22-2006, 09:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

<---- Wishes he could play every hand 50 deep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

11-22-2006, 11:00 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

<---- Wishes he could play every hand 50 deep.

buy in for 50?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Fnord

11-23-2006, 12:06 AM

#8 (permalink)

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50x the Big Blind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

11-23-2006, 12:16 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Yea I know. Why dont you buy in half stacked?

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Warpe

11-23-2006, 12:20 AM

#10 (permalink)

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he'd have to rathole too much

Fnord

11-23-2006, 12:24 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Yeah, I tend to accumulate chips.
Bad habbit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Pelion

11-23-2006, 12:36 AM

#12 (permalink)

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lol ok. So when you first sit down do you tend to buyin half? I guess it makes sense if you are unfamiliar with the players or if you know the tall stacks are better than you but the short stacks are way worse.
I was under the impression you had an edge over the majority of tall stacks in your games though.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Fnord

11-23-2006, 01:03 AM

#13 (permalink)

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I buy in full for a lot of different reasons.

But not because I think my edge gets higher over the field with every extra chip of depth added.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

martindcx1e

11-23-2006, 06:45 AM

#14 (permalink)

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fnord, write up the world's greatest 50BB strategy...

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Ash256

11-23-2006, 11:16 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I've been having problems against shorties, those 20bb idiots who like buying into the deep-stacked nit tables to take a shot (I'm talking 6max here). I often find myself running into them holding some garbage like J8 on a J42 flop when I make a pot-sized bet postflop, or they push for a PSB after the flop, and I'm holding AK/AQ. Is it normal to stick the shorties chips in when you've got Ace High on a nice dry board? I also struggle to fold AK high when I'm getting 2:1 on my money and shorty could have a huge range of hands. I also find it annoying that I have to change my strategy (from psycho raise-with-any-2 image to nit) when the Shorty Army come along, because my LAG strategy is a beautiful one for fairly deepstacked 6max, but 5h6h is no good against these idiots.

In terms of the original question, I disagree. In my opinion, apart from the obvious AA vs. set (and a few others) situations which have automatic implied odds, I feel a lot of implied odds in NLHE comes from forcing players to make decisions by being aggressive, forcing nits to play back at you, and forcing people who just play their cards to try to think on another level, and I feel that you need full buyins to do this effectively. Shorties also seem to have a camping mentality, and will happily lay down postflop and wait for TPTK.

Listen to my music

Dave Davis

11-23-2006, 11:34 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I don't like short stacks very much because of the implied odds. But sometimes, shortstacks are prepared to push all their chips in on a bluff. Here is an example of tilted shortstacked guy. I couldn't believe my eyes!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($9.81)
UTG ($9.88)
Hero ($21.27)
Button ($3.30)
SB ($10.74)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, T

.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.25, Button calls $0.25, 2 folds.

Flop: ($0.57) A

, Q

, 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, Button raises to $0.9, Hero raises to $2.45, Button raises to $3.05, Hero calls $0.60.

Turn: ($6.67) A

(2 players)

River: ($6.67) 4

(2 players)

Final Pot: $6.67

The guy showed 96 of spades! Can you believe that? He lost a hand against me before so he was tilted and there are a lot of cases you can see the same behavior. He is prepared to go all in on any two hands instead of rebuying. In this case, I loved I wasn't up against a full stack because he probably wouldn't do that (but you never know).

Fnord

11-23-2006, 12:03 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

fnord, write up the world's greatest 50BB strategy...

Don't fold good hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

11-23-2006, 12:07 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Davis

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($104.55)
Button ($53.15)
SB ($285.80)
BB ($238.15)
UTG ($226.50)
Fnord ($189)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with 3

, 3

.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, CO raises to $14, 3 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 3

, 7

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $22, Fnord calls $22.

Turn: ($75) 4

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

River: ($75) T

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $68.55 (All-In), Fnord calls $68.55.

Final Pot: $212.10

Results in white below:
Fnord has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of sevens).
CO has Qh Ad (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $212.10.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($109.50)
UTG ($88.30)
MP ($168.35)
Fnord ($501.85)
Button ($113.75)
SB ($392.70)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with J

, Q

.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Fnord raises to $10, 1 fold, SB calls $9, 1 fold, UTG calls $8.

Flop: ($32) 2

, 4

, J

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $8, Fnord raises to $30, SB folds, UTG calls $22.

Turn: ($92) 7

(2 players)
UTG bets $48.3 (All-In), Fnord calls $48.30.

River: ($188.60) K

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $188.60

Results in white below:
UTG has Jc 8h (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Js Qc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Fnord wins $188.60.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($64.90)
SB ($91.65)
BB ($185.40)
Fnord ($197)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with T

, K

.
Fnord raises to $8, Button raises to $14, 2 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 7

, T

, 8

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets $12, Fnord raises to $183, Button calls $38.90 (All-In).

Turn: ($264.90) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($264.90) 7

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $264.90

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ts Kh (two pair, tens and sevens).
Button has Kd Ac (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $264.90.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($245.35)
Button ($127.80)
SB ($200)
BB ($319.25)
UTG ($61.50)
Fnord ($227.20)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with K

, K

.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, 1 fold, Button calls $8, 2 folds.

Flop: ($19) 3

, T

, 4

(2 players)
Fnord bets $15, Button raises to $30, Fnord raises to $219.2, Button calls $89.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($358) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($358) 5

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $358

Results in white below:
Fnord has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
Button has Kd Td (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Fnord wins $358.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Dave Davis

11-23-2006, 12:20 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Even at higher stakes. Thanks, Fnord.

Beck

11-24-2006, 10:31 PM

#20 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 410

i see some shorties nut camp all day, then hit their hand make like $10BB and leave. casue they are so short stacked it is hard to fold to their all in. I just take notes on them when I see it happen. I know of 1 regular on stars that sits down 20BB and leaves with like 30 and sits at another table. he is actually quite profitable doing this, just very very slow at acumilating money.

-Beck

Dave Davis

11-25-2006, 10:35 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Posts: 100

How about c-betting shortstacked? I often c bet shortstacked and then he reraises to all in and I get like 5 to 1 odds to call so I can call with king high. It just seems like a waste of money.

b-rabbit

11-25-2006, 09:15 PM

#22 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: virginia

Posts: 207

b-rabbit is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

, 3

.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $8, CO raises to $14, 3 folds, Fnord calls $6.

Flop: ($31) 3

, 7

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $22, Fnord calls $22.

Turn: ($75) 4

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

River: ($75) T

fnord...if that 4th club doesn't come on the river, are you still checking there? do you think he still bluffs off his stack

do the right thing.

Warpe

11-26-2006, 07:19 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Here's a shortie that built his stack up above a half-buyin but continued to play like he had 25bb:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $124.05
CO: $200
Hero: $249.60
SB: $312.45
BB: $201.30

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with K

UTG raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: A

($27, 3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $20, UTG raises all-in $112.05, Hero calls.

Turn: 4

($251.1, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $251.1)

River: 3

($251.1, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $251.1)

Results:
Final pot: $251.1
UTG showed Th 8h

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