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Ztech
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08-31-2009, 03:46 AM
Post subject: Short Stacks
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Staying out of the FTR Community threads and sticking to the pokerz
Posts: 58
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Hey everyone,
I need some advice. I recently started playing online again after over a year off. I am 4 to 6 tabling 10NL FR on Full Tilt. I have noticed since starting to play again that the amount of short stackers has multiplied. It is very hard to find a table without at least 3 20BB stacks, usually there are more than that.
So my question is when/what situations are good spots to take these guys on. I find myself opening a pot as the PFR for 4x BB then they shove their 20BB. So they have taken all implied odds and postflop play out. Right now I find myself only taking them on with AQs+ JJ+. Am I just being a total nit here?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
--Z
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salempc
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21
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The obvious best approach on short stackers must be position.
Raise them and watch them chicken out.
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dranger7070
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08-31-2009, 05:51 AM
Post subject: Re: Short Stacks
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#3 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ztech
Hey everyone,
I need some advice. I recently started playing online again after over a year off. I am 4 to 6 tabling 10NL FR on Full Tilt. I have noticed since starting to play again that the amount of short stackers has multiplied. It is very hard to find a table without at least 3 20BB stacks, usually there are more than that.
So my question is when/what situations are good spots to take these guys on. I find myself opening a pot as the PFR for 4x BB then they shove their 20BB. So they have taken all implied odds and postflop play out. Right now I find myself only taking them on with AQs+ JJ+. Am I just being a total nit here?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
--Z |
Run some ranges through Pokerstove, I think you'll be surprised what you come up with that will be a profitable call vs. 20bb stacks. I did this back when I was at 10nl and it is quite surprising. Most 10nl 20bb stacks I came across somwhere in the 7/6 or tighter range. Plug that into Pokerstove or maybe just do, AQo+, AQs, JJ+ cuz thats basically the range they are shoving. Plug that in, figure out the pot odds, and compare to what you can call off to make it breakeven/profitable. It's a good thing to study up on as you'll start encountering it A LOT as you move up. GL!
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Oh shit here we go again...
Cue the discussion about how short-stacking is wrong in 3... 2... 1...
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
Oh shit here we go again...
Cue the discussion about how short-stacking is wrong in 3... 2... 1...
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To nip this in the ass, he's not saying HE'S short stacking. Just wants to know a decent counter strategy to their 3-bet shoves PF.
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Yeah I know... just being my usual grumpy self this morning. 
To the OP, first thing to work on is table selection. Don't let these turds sit two seats to your left (or your right). But if you're multi-tabling it becomes somewhat tedious so you're going to have to deal with them at some point.
You'll find that a lot of 20bb short-stacks at the micros will 3bet shove with 22+, AT+, KJ+ and sometimes worse. It's truly hideous. If you're constantly being 3bet raised AI from a shortie, gamble with them or find another table. You're going to find yourself in a flip situation with them most times. Run some ranges through pokerstove and see if its +EV for you to call a 20bb shove.
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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AQs, JJ+ is a pretty safe range to call with vs any shortstacker, though Nutty's range is the kind of hands I commonly see them showdown. I'm more of a tourney style player, so getting it aipf vs SS'ers doesn't bother me in the least bit. Just try to make a range for them, since not all SS'ers are shoving exactly the same range, and work it out from there.
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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This is a topic I've been wanting to talk about because I've noticed a LOT of players seem to HATE playing against shortstackers. While I wouldn't say I LOVE shortstackers, I think I've noticed to this point ($50NL starting from $2NL), I have been and have continued to make a LOT of money from them. I certainly don't avoid them and compared to nitty regulars, I prefer shortstackers because they seem like easier, looser targets.
For starters, shortstackers, by and large, are bad players. They don't want to play post flop. Many times, for whatever reason, they are simply scared to play with more money. They don't have any imagination. They either push or fold pre-flop or try to get in cheap pre-flop and then push or fold on the flop. To answer your question, there is no one size fits all approach. You need to take notes, get reads, establish ranges, figure out your equity, and make a decision that is the most EV for you. Some shortstackers may only push with ACES or KINGS and you'll never want to play back unless you have ACES. Some may push with any pocket pair and you'll do well to call with 9's or better. It's just a matter of figuring out what kind of short stacker they are and exploiting it. It's so easy to put pressure on them post flop because they will frequently tell you if they have it or not after one cbet or donk bet. Bombs away on a scary all flushed or paired board. They have no wiggle room to wait for more cards, value bet, or bluff. They are at a big disadvantage and I would NEVER recommend anyone play poker using a short stacking strategy.
Good luck.
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- Jason
 
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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once you learn their ranges most ss players are super easy to beat.
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salempc
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21
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Just push them all in with AQ+ or JJ+, short stackers can sometimes be pretty loose, just use your reads.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Yeah you can say they're so easy to beat, and many are - but there's bigger edges to exploit when the stacks are deeper. You're hurting your bottom line if you seek out a table of only short stackers, though 1-2 at the table probably won't interfere as much...
My win rate has definately gone up by playing only 50bb min tables though.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Yeah you can say they're so easy to beat, and many are - but there's bigger edges to exploit when the stacks are deeper. You're hurting your bottom line if you seek out a table of only short stackers, though 1-2 at the table probably won't interfere as much...
My win rate has definately gone up by playing only 50bb min tables though.
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Can't say that i disagree just saying they should not be feared. Most bad SS players hardly ever fold to a 3-bet after they raise. So you can give yourself a leg up over them by being aggro when your hand is above their range. The problem comes from the other players at the table. To me SS players are an indirect nuisance because they alter how i can play against other medium and deep stack players.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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oh yeah, don't fear em lol.
there is a really good article on 2+2 in the COTW threads area about playing against short stackers, def. a must read, sorry no link but should be easy to find.
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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tuuk2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Hartford
Posts: 296
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At 5nl, short stackers for the most part suck. When I play a table I like a good mix. Maybe two or three short stackers and the rest medium to 200+bb ( I play mostly 6-max). At best, I stack them for a couple of dollars. At worst, they suck out on me and I lose a couple of dollars. If I lose, there's another short stacker to get it back from since that one almost invariably leaves after they double up.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Ofcourse your preference is going to be having position on them, but then again you want position on the good deepstacks at your table too, don't you?
So having played around with ss'ing, 1/2stacking, etc, one thing I know that works against many shorties that aren't very tight, when they've got position on you is if you are opening the pot with a hand you'd like to try to take his stack with, limp. The temptation for them is to raise you with position, building the pot for an allin on the flop or just stealing your limp. Shorties shouldn't just be limping in, they can't afford to do that, you'd just bleed 'em dry.
So if you've limped and they go to 4Xbb, assuming everyone else folds, when you re-raise them allin, you've created the mathmatical situation where they tell themselves they have to call odds-wise. While this is usually true mathmatically, you've convinced them to go to war with their stack with a playable hand, while you have a great hand.
Sure this is only one move to use against them. But hey, against most shorties, you don't need a whole toolbox.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
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