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NZNZGZ
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01-20-2009, 07:21 PM
Post subject: Short-Stack Strategy
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
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I recently started to learn the SSS for N.L. Hold'em, as a new option to be added to Omaha H/L that I used to play. Once you learn the basics, everything looks pretty automatic, but of course I still need to go into deeper details of this strategy.
I wonder which one is the right micro-limit to start playing it (practice is also very important). This question might sound stupid, but it is related to the number of "All-In" fans you can find in freerolls, and probably at NL2, NL5, mainly because the amount of money that can be involved in the pot is ridiculous.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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You won't get a lot of love for short stacking here in the BC. For the most part, all the shorties you run into at the micros are multitabling AI nutcampers. Or complete donks who shove weak and don't realize they have no fold equity.
Much different at the higher levels, I assume. I know there are a few regs around FTR that are pretty good at it.
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ryokan
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 119
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short stackers, i hate u. go find a lake to drown yourself or invent some kind of funny way to end your life on this planet (pls post detailed account on this forum).
If your dont really wanna play poker, play some other game where your sad little life might be appreciated by other saddos like chess or MTG.
PS i hate shortstackers!
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Playing short stacks is a strategy. To play short at the mcro stakes vs bad players will do nothing for your game. If you ever plan on doing anything but short stacking the micro stakes you may want to change your strategy.
As for any advice, give it up. Certainly give it up at Omaha where the players are worse and and as KB said, you have 0 fold equity.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Learning how to play short is equivalent to learning how to crawl, and then think this fancy walking business isn't really necessary to get around
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NZNZGZ
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
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I recently started to play poker, and for that reason I decided to start with the SSS in N.L. Hold'em. Of course I will not end at this point, as I know there are a lot of things to learn about the game (concepts, other strategies, an so on). But I need a starting point and it has no sense to play poker at NL25 or NL50 without any knowledge about the different aspects involved in the game.
Nevermind if you like short-stack players or not. But as said before, I'm new at poker tables and I need a minimum background and some experience at the tables, before going up in the limits.
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only_bridge
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 100
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What do you people define as short stack? I think play is very automatic when you have <10bb, but with 20bb you are not shortstacked anymore, and play becomes very difficult, and not profitable.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by only_bridge
What do you people define as short stack? I think play is very automatic when you have <10bb, but with 20bb you are not shortstacked anymore, and play becomes very difficult, and not profitable.
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I have literally zero experience shortstacking but it seems that having 10BB or less would mean that we're pushing a very tight, predictable range without much (or any) fold equity while playing 20BB would give us more room to maneuver, i.e. being able to fold if you're steal attempt is 3b, being able to resteal shove and have fold equity. In fact, 20-40BB is what i've seen from nearly all successful shortstackers at low limits. The 10BB stacks bust out much too often while the 40-60BB stacks become trapped by their awkward stacks/poor skills postflop.
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Well, I thought my one-liner was amusing anyway. Short stacking is a strategy that can be very profitable and in certain games even the most profitable. It's unpopular mainly because it's forcing everyone else to either play on your terms or not be able to play optimally against you because of other people in the hand.
It doesn't exactly stunt your growth, but it does teach only a subset of useful skills.
Whether short stacking is a good way to learn is debatable and mostly depends on the individual and how the learning is approached.
If you have a solid short stacking strategy you should be profitable at any limit, but as with any other strategy if you are still putting the strategy together or resolving difficult spots in your mind you are better off playing lower where the losses are more manageable.
Short stacking can also be one of the most idiot proof strategies. Not in the sense of the playing applying the short stack strategy being an idiot, but something you'll often see is people quoting words to the effect of that you cannot be owned at microstakes, you can only own yourself. You think the opponents are better than they are, and the play that would be correct against a better opponent is wrong against the idiot. A short stack strategy tends to be much more mathematical (as it is more mathematically simple) and you end up in much fewer spots where it matters whether your opponent is an idiot or a thinking player.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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here is how to short stack. Buy in for 10xbb then shove JJ+ and ak. Then never learn how to actually play the game.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Short stacking at the micros is retarded. Most players play TPNK for stacks, so you want a big stack to maximize when you get a hand.
As to what level you start at - see Bankroll Management. Short stacking does not allow you to play a higher level.
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NZNZGZ
I recently started to play poker, and for that reason I decided to start with the SSS in N.L. Hold'em. Of course I will not end at this point, as I know there are a lot of things to learn about the game (concepts, other strategies, an so on). But I need a starting point and it has no sense to play poker at NL25 or NL50 without any knowledge about the different aspects involved in the game.
Nevermind if you like short-stack players or not. But as said before, I'm new at poker tables and I need a minimum background and some experience at the tables, before going up in the limits.
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Deposit on Stars and play $2NL. Don't even think about $25 or $50 right now. Short stacking does not allow you to learn the game. It just give you tremendous shove equity when you have large pocket pairs because you have no other way to play the hand. You don't have the ability to bluff anything after the flop.
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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I wouldn't recommend short-stacking until you can understand and play a solid deep-stack game first. I've experimented here and there with short-stacking and half-stacking with mixed results but the important part is that I really didn't learn much from it except for the ol' shove/fold routine. And to me, that's tournament silliness, not real poker. But then again, what do I know... I can't even consistently play a disciplined deep stack game myself. 
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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If NZNZGZ is still reading this thread I would like to say you are very wrong. All of poker is played after the flop. I could pretty much teach anyone how to kill the micro stakes preflop game, but w/20BB you only have enough money for preflop and the flop. Are you willing to move to $25NL or $50NL with absolutely no Turn or River experience? Don't kid yourself, people are playing you differently than other players because of your stack size, which means you will not have any experience in how they will play against you with a different stack either when you decide to increase your stack size.
You are not the first person to try this here on this site, you may not even be the 100th and you won't be the last. I cna tell you that you will change your mind or you are destined to stare at the cashier and wonder why nothing is happening, not to mention being unable to post a hand for any type of strategy discussion for all of the "buy in full and "why so short stacked" comments that will fill the thread. Lastly, search out the intellipoker site, here and on 2+2 and read what shortstacking the micro/small stakes is thought of, and why it is an aweful way to learn/play poker. See you in a couple months when you tell us we were right.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ryokan
short stackers, i hate u. go find a lake to drown yourself or invent some kind of funny way to end your life on this planet (pls post detailed account on this forum).
If your dont really wanna play poker, play some other game where your sad little life might be appreciated by other saddos like chess or MTG.
PS i hate shortstackers!
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Sounds like you don't know how to play them as you shouldn't be angry if you were taking their money??
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ryokan
short stackers, i hate u. go find a lake to drown yourself or invent some kind of funny way to end your life on this planet (pls post detailed account on this forum).
If your dont really wanna play poker, play some other game where your sad little life might be appreciated by other saddos like chess or MTG.
PS i hate shortstackers!
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Sounds like you don't know how to play them as you shouldn't be angry if you were taking their money?? |
LOL that's kinda harsh... almost strike one worthy eh?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Short stacking might actually teach big stacks how to play against short stacks because they normally would fail to take into account effective stacks. You won't be effective short stacking if you can't play deep though, and you can't really be effective deep if you can't adjust to short. I tried it for 25K hands and the variance is sick. It's easier to make money playing deep if you fix up the big leaks, but with the ability to play so many tables short you're $/hour could be higher to cover the lower win rate. I wouldn't recommend playing poker like this, but trying out different strategies helps put you into a different set of shoes for awhile and see the game from a different angle.
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NZNZGZ
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
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I have been following the different replies to my post and I got one clear idea about “Short-Stack” Strategy. It seems very unpopular and looks very unsuccessful. But I would like to clarify again, that I just started to learn the game just a couple of weeks ago and that I needed a starting point. When I was asking were to apply the SSS (NL2, NL5 NL10 …), I didn´t mean, I was going to quit my skills improvement of the game at this point. But from my very short experience I realized that one of the main factors to win is to have the ability to anticipate other players hand. This sometimes includes SSS and I realized that some players seat at the table short-stacked. Of course not all of them will apply SSS as many players play for fun with a minimum bankroll, and they don´t even care if they destroy it or not. But for those playing this way, I would say I need at least to know the strategy to anticipate their movements.
I agree with “JYMS” that poker is a post-flop game, and for that reason I need to learn deepstack/bigstack strategy, Outs, Odds, Pot Odds, and a lot of concepts that at the present moment are completely new for me, but this will come within the next weeks if not months.
That’s all I wanted to say but before finishing this post, I would like to ask you the following questions, as it seems I’m completely wrong with the way I planned to learn the game:
How did you start playing poker (reading books, friends teaching you, poker schools …)?
If you had to start from “Zero”, how would you do it?
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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And what the others are telling you is that SSS isn't a starting point for learning the game. Boxing analogy. A fighter's approach at the opening bell of the 1st round is much different from the approach at the opening bell of the final round when behind on points. Same thing in poker. SSS is something you should know how to utilize when losing, but no need to practice it. U just wait for JJ+, AJ+, push, and hope you get lucky (most times you will be in a coin flip situation). Instead of practicing turning 20BB into 40BB, you should practice turning 100BB into 200BB. Practice the opening round boxing techniques as opposed to practicing how to land a round 12 lucky knockout punch.
Where to start? Forget 25NL / 50NL. Start off at 5NL ($0.05 BB) following Bankroll Management buyin guidelines. Practice/play, post hands, ask the dumb questions (I still do) and be willing to accept advice. You'll get alot of good advice here. Good luck. I hope I've been helpful. I'm still a novice myself.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Starting from Zero? I watch every one of the 5 videos on this site by spenda to learn about position, hand selection, basic concepts and everything micro stakes. I watch my video on table selection to learn about where sitting is wrong and when to get up. In between each video I look for articles in the beginner digest that revolve around the concept you just watched/learned and try to learn more. I keep my playing to one or two hours max on one or two tables as not to get caught up in winrates, hourly wage and moving up and focus on the understanding of the game then go back to my notes and see if I was still thinking correctly. Then I post questions in between on things you don't quite understand or need clarification on. Lastly, I right a big note on a post it note and put it on my monitor and read it everytime I have a real tough decision for a lot of chips, it reads "FOLD"
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