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Set under set: any way to avoid?

  
 
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dzeanah
Old 06-15-2006, 06:38 AM     Post subject: Set under set: any way to avoid? #1 (permalink)  
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dzeanah
tinkering with short-handed tables tonight and was surprised at the profitability until this hand. New to the table, didn't have a line on the guy, figured QJ was most likely holding from the betting.

So, is this just the way poker plays back at you sometimes, or did I screw this up?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($9.80)
Button ($1.30)
SB ($9.85)
BB ($11.50)
UTG ($5.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, 8.
UTG calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 8, J, Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($0.50) 4 (5 players)
SB bets $0.5, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero raises to $1, Button folds, SB raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $5, SB raises to $9.5, Hero raises to $13.7, SB calls $1.20.

River: ($24.90) 2 (2 players)

Final Pot: $24.90

Results in white below:
SB has Jh Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
Hero has 8s 8h (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: SB wins $24.90.
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ItDepends
Old 06-15-2006, 06:42 AM #2 (permalink)  
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9t not possible? I'd get the hint after a re-re-reraise

Edit: Bet the flop please....
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givememyleg
Old 06-15-2006, 07:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 1) I would raise preflop.
2) I would bet that flop.
3) I wouldn't min raise the turn.

T9 is hugely possible in a limped pot like this.... Raise it up preflop. I would definitely be far more concerned about the straight here, I could never put villian on JJ QQ. If villian has T9 here I would much rather be allin on the flop vs the turn as you lose about 15% equity with only 1 card to come. Also, folding bottom set here is pretty much read dependent. This would be a very tough one to fold, and don't think I could do it very often, but if you're in this unraised pot with a NIT nut camper I would be suspicious.

But to answer the question in your post, no. If this had been a flop like 3 8 J, totally unconnected, you SHOULD go broke with 88 v JJ. Set under Set is just teh suck and you should pay it off, esspecially if it is allin on the flop.

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aokrongly
Old 06-15-2006, 03:48 PM #4 (permalink)  
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aokrongly
Generally speaking you're going to pay off when you have an underset to an overset. They are really hard to see. In this particular hand, however, when you get into a re-re-reraise-push situation with that flop, I would have put the guy on a lucky flopped straight and slowed down.

You have to ask yourself why this guy is reraising. He either made the straight or has 2 pair. I never put someone on an overset unless there was alot of preflop raising and the flop comes with kq or something like that. Then you have to think "is the guy playing a big pocket pair".

Generally, though, on a 10nl table players only get really involved in raise-re-re-reraise situations with nut hands (or close to them). Otherwise they are either pushing (with a mistake or draw) or they are going to back down and start calling. There are exceptions, but generally speaking 10nl players are passive in the face of strong bets. when they get active you have to think they have something strong. Or they decided to bet it all on their drawing hand.
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jyms
Old 06-15-2006, 04:02 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I think checking the flop is where all the problems start. If you bet the flop he will either call or come over the top. Either way it gives you a heads up and gets all the clutter out of there. If you slow play a set like this against 4 callers on a club flush draw someone is going to hit something. Bet the pot and take out the chasers and when the sb comes over the top you'll see the amber light in the distance Also why re-re-re raise. If I like my hand enought to re-raise, I'm either all in to his raise or out.
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dzeanah
Old 06-15-2006, 04:16 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Y'all are right. Looking at it this morning I should have given some thought to the flopped straight, at a minimum.

Thanks, guys.
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swiggidy
Old 06-15-2006, 04:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Don't min-raise.

Note: both of his re-raises are min-re-raises. That should also send up a warning flag.
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