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Sl4y3r
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03-22-2009, 07:22 AM
Post subject: Set of 2's- Check this river?
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 59
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This hand was against the table donator, but im worried about the river play. He was 78/30 and Id seen him call $10 to the river and fold for $1.50 more, is there anypoint betting here? FWIW I put him on flush draw, 2pair or tptk.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP2 ($23.30)
MP3 ($9.70)
CO ($10)
Button ($8)
SB ($10.80)
BB ($9.80)
UTG ($6.50)
UTG+1 ($3.75)
Hero (MP1) ($9.40)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 2 , 2
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 4 folds, SB calls $0.15, 1 fold
Flop: ($0.70) 2 , Q, J (3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.20, SB calls $1.20, 1 fold
Turn: ($3.60) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.50, SB calls $2.50
River: ($8.60) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB raises to $6.90 (All-In), Hero calls $2 (All-In)
Total pot: $19.60 | Rake: $0.95
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Fold preflop.
Raise larger on the flop, say $1.70ish.
Bet turn harder.
Shove river, count evies!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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wut is this, you flopped a set against the fish and you want to check a safe river?
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Sl4y3r
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
wut is this, you flopped a set against the fish and you want to check a safe river?
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Well I didnt want to, guess its fine and I should get over that he showed down the nut straight. Just thought that my read that he chases large bets down to river and folds could make this a check.
Thanks stax and spenda will bet harder and maybe consider the pf fold next time.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Sl4y3r
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
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Is it really facepalm bad? Damn...
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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The part that makes it bad is the fact that you have him pegged as the table donator. You have seen him make some terrible plays. He has alot more in his range here than just what beats you, yet because you lost this time you want to check back river. Your ahead of his calling range on this river, therefore shoving the river is profitable. If you are ahead of the range he calls the river with only 51% of the time, then a shove is correct. Look at some of the hands this bad of a player would call the river with, and throw them in pokerstove and see if you have >51% equity.
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grimreaper007
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: hudson wi
Posts: 11
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i wouldnt check a safe river like that make at least a value bet u get called either win a little more or lose and still have some left but not very likely that ur behind there
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somethings you just have to learn.... but i cant learn this game
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Considering this villain could be holding a wide range, and the fact the board is pretty wet (FD and SD), would it be bad to shove the flop after he bets?
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grimreaper007
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: hudson wi
Posts: 11
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well i would assume u want to make some money after u see the flop so i would say bad idea
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somethings you just have to learn.... but i cant learn this game
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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also, raise a bit more on the flop and make your turn bet closer to pot. You'll make getting the rest in on the river far easier.
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your banner burned here
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by grimreaper007
well i would assume u want to make some money after u see the flop so i would say bad idea
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If he has ATc, he has a gutshot str8 and a flush draw. Not counting running Aces or running T's, this gives him 12 outs to the str8 or flush. With two cards to come and 12 outs, I believe thats 48% to make his hand. In the instances he doesn't make his hand, he likely is not calling any river bet.
So after thinking it through that way, I agree with raising a bit more on the flop, thuse you are able to bet even bigger on the turn to deny him odds to hit the river. So in most cases you will hope he makes the mistake of calling your pot size turn bet without odds, missing the river and folding. Is my thinking correct here?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
Considering this villain could be holding a wide range, and the fact the board is pretty wet (FD and SD), would it be bad to shove the flop after he bets?
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Betting/Raising bigger is needed here, but shoving over his straight up overkill. You would be shoving like a $9 stack into the pot of $1.20. Yeah, sure.... You are likely ahead, and there are a fair amount of draws. However, you are ahead of draws. You WANT draws to call your raise. Even if this means that he hits on the turn and wins the pot.* Your job in poker to put money in the pot when your a favorite, and to avoid putting money in the pot when your an underdog (unless they fold often enough). Here you are a favorite, you want to bet/raise an amount that he will call, yet that will make his call incorrect.
* Also remember, that even if you raise and he does call the flop with a draw and hit it on the turn, with our particular hand we have redraws to 10 outs going into the river.
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Fold preflop.
Raise larger on the flop, say $1.70ish.
Bet turn harder.
Shove river, count evies!
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Is this not a profitable setmining spot?
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KeeKoLy
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KeeKoLy
Considering this villain could be holding a wide range, and the fact the board is pretty wet (FD and SD), would it be bad to shove the flop after he bets?
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Betting/Raising bigger is needed here, but shoving over his straight up overkill. You would be shoving like a $9 stack into the pot of $1.20. Yeah, sure.... You are likely ahead, and there are a fair amount of draws. However, you are ahead of draws. You WANT draws to call your raise. Even if this means that he hits on the turn and wins the pot.* Your job in poker to put money in the pot when your a favorite, and to avoid putting money in the pot when your an underdog (unless they fold often enough). Here you are a favorite, you want to bet/raise an amount that he will call, yet that will make his call incorrect.
* Also remember, that even if you raise and he does call the flop with a draw and hit it on the turn, with our particular hand we have redraws to 10 outs going into the river. |
Ok, I am not trying to de-rail the thread from this particular hand, but rather ask hypothetical questions to bring forth discussion...
So, let's say we were short stacked (let's say $4) when the hand starts. Now on the flop he bets .50 into .70 (pot is now 1.20), would it then be correct to shove? In this case, we would still have over 3.50, so I would think we would still not want to shove here. I am just trying to relate this to some of the stack size threads going around lately.
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RoyalProdigy
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 178
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Alright hes the table donator correct? So you know hes a fish correct? We all know what fish do they go for the bait, they call call call. So we get this wonderful flop and your raise on the flop was perfect imo. So he calls your raise. Whats he calling with? theres only two hands that beat you and hes not holding one of them and we know it. So hes on a draw or hes got k-q or q-j. I know i got the better of him and if i bet anything lower than the pot hes gonna call to try and suck out, so im probably going to overbet the turn a bit to protect my hand and if he calls and sucks out anyway oh well i did what i could to protect my hand while i was big favorite.The reason i would overbet the turn a little bit is because if he has flush draw and he calls hes like 18% to hit so most the time hes not and he puts in almost all his money for a blank, Also he might just fold right there and i can just pick up what he already put in the pot from the flop bet. Your turn bet was low, and the river wasnt scary enough for me to even question shoving. I'm shoving the river oh yeah!
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Stack That Arab Money!!!
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Betting/Raising bigger is needed here, but shoving over his straight up overkill.
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this
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Sl4y3r
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 59
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
The part that makes it bad is the fact that you have him pegged as the table donator. You have seen him make some terrible plays. He has alot more in his range here than just what beats you, yet because you lost this time you want to check back river. Your ahead of his calling range on this river, therefore shoving the river is profitable. If you are ahead of the range he calls the river with only 51% of the time, then a shove is correct. Look at some of the hands this bad of a player would call the river with, and throw them in pokerstove and see if you have >51% equity.
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Thanks stacks. I had a look into this with pokerstove, really I have a crapload of equity against this player. I felt this during the hand, and i insta called his shove over and said to myself cooler/suckout if he has AT. I believed he would fold river and decided on an amount he may have called with TP.
The fact is that I shoulve bet harder on all streets but I didnt want to scare him out of the pot because I felt he may have a TP type hand. He liteterally blew 2 buy ins in the last 20hands chasing to the river and folding to a 1/8th-1/10th pot sized bet. I just really didnt want to blow him out of the pot, doing so I let him draw reasonably cheaply(for his standards).
The main reason I posted this hand was to see if anyone thought betting/shoving against this particular player with my read is profitable.
Im really happy that it generated so much discussion, thanks to everyone that has contributed.
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