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Strung
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07-04-2005, 05:56 AM
Post subject: scared to play premiums like AQ/AK ($25 NL)
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I'm having problems playing hands like AK/AQ/KQ/AJ. I just don't feel confident enough with these hands post flop when I hit my one pair. Maybe it's more a problem playing TPTK and how vulnerable it is/makes you to lose your stack if you get too attached. Any firendly advice on how to play these? Obviously the first step is to raise preflop to weed out the limpers but I'm more concerned post flop, especially when you get in a hand with a big stack.
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mgobluefb
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 172
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When I play 25NL full, I'm playing the flop aggresively no matter what with these hands, whether I hit or not. On the other hand, if I run into resistance, I stop and think. Either he's pissed that I'm betting into him, so he feels that playing back into me will allow him to steal the pot, or he's actually got a hand. This is of course when the decision becomes difficult. It depends.
In 25NL, you make most of your money by being paid off by the second best hand. And often, TPTK just doesn't get it done. For the most part, it depends on the player. If you bet your TPTK only to have a rock raise all-in, TPTK may not be good. However, players in 25NL are unpredictable - I've found often that they try to play back at you with absolutely nothing.
Those are my scattered thoughts...
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BIGandRICH
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07-04-2005, 07:02 AM
Post subject: Re: scared to play premiums like AQ/AK ($25 NL)
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#3 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
I'm having problems playing hands like AK/AQ/KQ/AJ. I just don't feel confident enough with these hands post flop when I hit my one pair. Maybe it's more a problem playing TPTK and how vulnerable it is/makes you to lose your stack if you get too attached. Any firendly advice on how to play these? Obviously the first step is to raise preflop to weed out the limpers but I'm more concerned post flop, especially when you get in a hand with a big stack.
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first of all.. KQ and AJ.. i dont often play them without position, and if someone raises preflop i'm very often folding, to often they are beat.
Unless i have a good read on a player i dont want to get heavily involved with a single pair.. if a guy is putting me AI i'm willing to lay it down, sometimes I'm laying down a huge favourite but i find more often i'm dominated. Hell, i've layed down top 2 pair AK because the guy put me AI (he obviously had a set).
when i'm playing those TPTK hands.. if i'm being raised i serious consider leaving it alone, if i'm being called i will keep betting. Sometimes theres a guy slowplaying a low set, but more often the guy calling is on TPWK or a draw and i beat him. Over time you'll get a feel for it and know when your beat.
if its not working out post some hand histories in the histories forum and people can give you some ideas.. specific examples are much easier to comment on than your question here.
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
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seems like good advice by BIGandRICH. At 25NL im folding KQ, AJ in EP, and AQ in LP to a good raise. I limp AQ, AK in EP, raise them in LP.
The key to making all this work (if you have position for the hand) is betting out the flop if it is checked to you, whether you paired or not. You'll take down alot of pots this way, and should make AK, AQ big winners for you.
When you flop TPTK do get called on the flop, you need to slow down and think. Like BIGANDRICH im betting my TPTK until im given some sign its not good (being raised). If Im raised, I will let it go alot of times. At NL25 you will find better opportunities to put money in a pot then with TPTK, and you should try to be careful with just a pair.
I've found that when going against TPWK with TPTK, the TPWK becomes a calling station and doesnt raise, thus eliminating you from making a hard decision about whether you are good with just a pair.
So I guess the bottom line is agressive but cautious when you get called/raised.
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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BIGandRICH
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by underminedsk
At 25NL im folding KQ, AJ in EP, and AQ in LP to a good raise. I limp AQ, AK in EP, raise them in LP.
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my other 2 cents..
table texture is a big thing to consider.. i managed to catch a NL25 the other day where a 10+BB preflop raise would still see the whole table in the hand  when this kind of thing happens your TP is almost never going to stand up, you just have to wait for a monster and take them down.
Pay close attention to the players and adjust your starting hand requirements acordingly, and how much you raise your AK, AQ will be different aswell depending on the players at your table.
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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"I limp AQ, AK in EP"
This is something I DON'T do in £25NL. I am probably wrong, so I'm not asking anyone to reassure me, but I'm keen to hear the logic.
My thinking = a limp with AK could leave 6 people seeing the flop, which effectively devalues my AK so much that unless you get a miracle flop (probably KKx or AAx) it's not going to be something you can rely on. So why even limp?
However, a strong raise (usually 5 or 6xBB from utg and you'll get one, maybe two callers (hopefully no raisers - but again, if this is something I should worry about, tell me). You'll still have bad position (probably), but you'll have good cards.
In a sense, you are stating your case very obviously from the start. This means your bluffing potential is minimised, but similarly, if an A or a K comes on the flop, your opponents will have to take into account that you're probably in the strongest position. Draws and unimproved pocket pairs will be unable to realistically follow a sizeable bet on the flop, and you'll take down an unusually "honest" victory, played in a very textbook way.
(even writing this makes me feel incredibly naive. But at low stakes NL, it does seem to work)
Thoughts?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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My play at lower limits has shown this trend to.
If you raise with aK in late position and get two or three callers and the flop is favourable some one will continue to call you down all the way to the end, despite the fact they are absolutely beat with Ax or something similarily stupid. They seem to think that the preflop raise was a bluff and you DONT have the top cards (they have no idea about position or pot odds). As ive moved up a little to get away from this purely fishy play (which is profitable but sometimes terribly variable when you get them calling with all sorts of rubbish) this doesnt happen as often. If you hit the flop hard regardless after a raise then 60% time your gona take it down there and then no matter whats on the board.
If your called without a pair as said you have to reevaluate your position and decide whether its really worth the risk. If rasied id fold because your probably beat.
The position issue is true at these levels. In limping with anything that isnt AK or a high pp. Simply put your AQ will hit a few flops and you can watch someone else hit the flop hard knowing your hiding the best hand. And it pays off if you play it like this as only a few people will notice your limping potentially premium hands at this level from ep.
For me no matter what flops if youve got AK etc hit that flop hard, bet 3/4 the pot and see how it goes.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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From now on. Pick a random hand like 5Ts/o and play it every time. Raise preflop and bet the flops and try to win it with aggression. Learn to play hands not for their hand value. Once you've figured out that, you can play hands that have hand value much more effectively. The beauty of 5/T vrs AK is you never make a bad call.
Or just generally grow some balls.
-'rilla
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mgobluefb
When I play 25NL full, I'm playing the flop aggresively no matter what with these hands, whether I hit or not. On the other hand, if I run into resistance, I stop and think. Either he's pissed that I'm betting into him, so he feels that playing back into me will allow him to steal the pot, or he's actually got a hand. This is of course when the decision becomes difficult. It depends.
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Last night I was throwing out between 7xBB-12xBB on every flop if I was the preflop raiser. More often than not I missed the flop but I was winning these hands the vast majority of the time. Aggression wins. If you meet resistance, re-evaluate but if I was only getting callers I was betting again on the next street. It rarely went to the river and if it did I was just as likely to win it there.
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realgenius
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 152
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I agree with 'rilla. It's all about growing some balls. I used to play this way, and would lose constantly. But once I grew a pair, and started playing with smart aggression, I raise EVERYTIME with AK, AQ preflop, and then bet the flop strong whether you hit it or not. You'll stop losing money and make a bundle. For example last night I had AQ, raised it 6xBB, got a caller. Flop came down K93 rainbow. I bet 8xBB, he calls. From observing his play all game, I'm almost certain he had a K. Turn comes 5. I bet 10xBB, he calls. I'm starting to get nervous here, but I'm really making him question his kicker. River comes 8, I bet 14xBB, he folds. I take down a nice size pot, with nothing but Ace high. Once I learned to be aggressive, the money started rolling in.
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This is a true story. I'm not a paid actor. FTR does not guarantee any results. People can and do lose money when playing poker.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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So you bet 38xBB when you thought you'd lost on the flop? And that's balls?
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
So you bet 38xBB when you thought you'd lost on the flop? And that's balls?
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He won the pot didn't he. If this didn't work very often then you could say it was -EV. But it does work often.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I had to pawn my enormous balls after losing too many pots exactly like this one :/ I now make do with a bijou pair that win the occasional stolen blind.
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BeatMeBad
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 49
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by realgenius
For example last night I had AQ, raised it 6xBB, got a caller. Flop came down K93 rainbow. I bet 8xBB, he calls. From observing his play all game, I'm almost certain he had a K. Turn comes 5. I bet 10xBB, he calls. I'm starting to get nervous here, but I'm really making him question his kicker. River comes 8, I bet 14xBB, he folds. I take down a nice size pot, with nothing but Ace high. Once I learned to be aggressive, the money started rolling in.
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What stakes do you play? I play mainly smaller SNGs and this play NEVER works. These idiot calling stations would call an all in with TP no matter their kicker. I've seen idiots call down with middle pair and occasionally even with bottom pair.
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"My lucky number is 4 billion. That doesn't come in real handy when you're gambling. "Come on, 4 billion! Fuck. Seven. Not even close. I need more dice." - Mitch Hedberg
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bair
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad
Quote:
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Originally Posted by realgenius
For example last night I had AQ, raised it 6xBB, got a caller. Flop came down K93 rainbow. I bet 8xBB, he calls. From observing his play all game, I'm almost certain he had a K. Turn comes 5. I bet 10xBB, he calls. I'm starting to get nervous here, but I'm really making him question his kicker. River comes 8, I bet 14xBB, he folds. I take down a nice size pot, with nothing but Ace high. Once I learned to be aggressive, the money started rolling in.
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What stakes do you play? I play mainly smaller SNGs and this play NEVER works. These idiot calling stations would call an all in with TP no matter their kicker. I've seen idiots call down with middle pair and occasionally even with bottom pair. |
make sure your betting patterns make sense when you bluff. lots of times people try to bluff and their betting pattern makes so little sense that ill call them down with ace high.
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DBL0SVN
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 230
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by realgenius
I agree with 'rilla. It's all about growing some balls. I used to play this way, and would lose constantly. But once I grew a pair, and started playing with smart aggression, I raise EVERYTIME with AK, AQ preflop, and then bet the flop strong whether you hit it or not. You'll stop losing money and make a bundle. For example last night I had AQ, raised it 6xBB, got a caller. Flop came down K93 rainbow. I bet 8xBB, he calls. From observing his play all game, I'm almost certain he had a K. Turn comes 5. I bet 10xBB, he calls. I'm starting to get nervous here, but I'm really making him question his kicker. River comes 8, I bet 14xBB, he folds. I take down a nice size pot, with nothing but Ace high. Once I learned to be aggressive, the money started rolling in.
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At $25NL, this is a high risk play since there are too many calling stations around who can't put down TP or MP, no matter what. Granted that you may win a lot with this approach but your swings will be crazy. At this level, it's easier to wait for hidden monsters like sets and straights and clean on up the guy who has TPTK. Basically I'll win a small pot with AK or let it go and win the huge pots with hidden monster hands.
Obviously, it's different at higher stakes when aggression really pays off - but not at $25NL
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BIGandRICH
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jazz Club
Posts: 419
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bair
make sure your betting patterns make sense when you bluff. lots of times people try to bluff and their betting pattern makes so little sense that ill call them down with ace high.
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yes i'll some times do this.. rarely, like 4 or 5 times so far.. but i've been right everytime.
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villain goes AI
i call with a set (i have him owned)
i win pot
villain: **** this, this site is bullshit, ******* rigged, suck out ****
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by realgenius
I agree with 'rilla. It's all about growing some balls.
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LMFAO
Seriously though, this thread is about reverse implied odds. It's about getting married to big cards. People who know where they're at postflop tend to lose a lot less with the big dogs.
Since I just took all your money with 33, maybe you and AA can go get a room. It's like that.
Eventually you'll realize when you're beat and file for divorce more often when your opponents hand is porking your wife.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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James_Stansky
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10
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Hi,
So long as you play TPTK aggressively on the flop, it should weed out all the suckouts. And if anyone is going to call you 5-8 BB to try an suckout, the long run will look profitable for you, so invite them to be your guest.
Don't let a few bad beats loosen up your aggression, otherwise they will lead to even more bad beats
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graven29
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 11
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Quote:
a500lbgorilla Posted: Mon, 04 Jul 2005, 10:05am
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From now on. Pick a random hand like 5Ts/o and play it every time. Raise preflop and bet the flops and try to win it with aggression. Learn to play hands not for their hand value. Once you've figured out that, you can play hands that have hand value much more effectively. The beauty of 5/T vrs AK is you never make a bad call.
Or just generally grow some balls.
-'rilla
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This is too many hands to play this way - T5 red offsuit or T5 black offsuit will still allow the practice, but will reduce the number of times you make the play. Otherwise it is solid advice.
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GO STEELERS
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Picking one hand is too many? You won't get T5 any more often than AK, and you don't get AK all that often. I don't really see the point of doing it that seldom. If you only chose T5 red offsuit you would probably go a lot of sessions without seeing it once.
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CrunchyNuts
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 436
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To make another comparison, if you play T5o, you'll play that way twice more then the number of times you get AA...6 ways to make AA, 12 ways to make T5o. Only two ways to make t5o-red...that'd be about 1/600 hands.
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Just play the basic game in NL25
Raise when you think you have a stronger hand, fold when you think you're beat
It shouldn't be harder than that
Aggression is for limits where that stops making money
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
From now on. Pick a random hand like 5Ts/o and play it every time. Raise preflop and bet the flops and try to win it with aggression. Learn to play hands not for their hand value. Once you've figured out that, you can play hands that have hand value much more effectively. The beauty of 5/T vrs AK is you never make a bad call.
Or just generally grow some balls.
-'rilla
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You really think this is wise at 25NL? Dont there tend to be alot of calling stations at this level? (From my experience anyway...) I think at NL25 you are going to have to show down the best hand to win most of the time, so raising garbage is dangerous when people will show down second pair or TPWK for huge pots.
Picking a random hand to raise every time you seee it seems alot more like a NL100+ move, where people acutally respect preflop raises and will fold shit like KJ on a Kxx flop if their bet is raised.
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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PokerPatNEU
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 797
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by underminedsk
You really think this is wise at 25NL? Dont there tend to be alot of calling stations at this level? (From my experience anyway...) I think at NL25 you are going to have to show down the best hand to win most of the time, so raising garbage is dangerous when people will show down second pair or TPWK for huge pots.
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I have to say from my experience (i only play 25NL) that showing down the best hand is definitely not the way i have made most of my money. 25NL is probably the fishiest group of opponents you're going to see, and they are easy to beat with position whether you have the cards or not. If someone has TPWK or second pair, they actually lead out with these hands from EP... Dunno how many times i've seen UTG or MP players raise pre flop, i'll call from the button with suited connectors, and bet out the raggy flop when its checked around to me. I've never tried picking a random hand and playing it like AK every time (and probably wont, just because i dont wanna get stuck if the flop comes crappy like 4 7 10, thinking i have the best hand if it gets checked around to me, too easy to get trapped) but i think it might work to an extent. The majority of the money i make at 25NL comes from picking up the 1-2$ pots in position with or without any hand at all, and getting out of the way unless i've made a real big hand whenever someone else is pushing the action.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Ditto. Also at $25NL EVERY SINGLE PLAYER* who re-raises on the flop has a very strong made hand.
*exceptions are (usually) good, loose aggressive players who stand out a mile at this level, but there aren't very many of them and they're so easy to spot.
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
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yeah maybe im just a pussy at NL25. I'm scared of those fish ; )
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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