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JeffreyGB
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03-11-2005, 06:09 AM
Post subject: Scare card: check vs bet
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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So you're in a hand with TPTK. Say you've got AhJh and the flop comes JsTc5s. You do your duty and raise the size of the pot. 2 of the 4 callers fold. Turn brings you a nightmare: Qs. How do you play it from here? What if it had been any random spade? A blank suited Q? As?
My typical answer would be to bet out again and likely fold if re-raised. If smooth called, is check/fold the right play on the river? I always feel like doing so screams weakness and I'm giving the pot up when I slow down my betting. On the otherhand, I lost out of two SnGs yesterday to people slowplaying and trapping after calling against the odds on the flop and never raising. Would it be better to check the turn, see what others do, and evaluate then? This, however, advertises weakness still, so I'd have just as much against it...
Thoughts? How would you play an identical situation if it were limit?
- Jeffrey
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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I wouldn't bet out for 2/3s of the pot, but a bet right under half the pot should tell you where you stand. Most people will raise back at you with the flush/straight, and if they just call, likely, you have them outkicked on the pair.
Of course, sometimes, you'll run into people smooth calling their straight/flush, or well this would suck, their set.
I check next and see what they do. Some good players will pick up on this and bet big to bluff ya, but most players will only bet gigantically if they own you. Otherwise, use your discretion in calling.
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Aceofone
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 497
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I'm going to make a couple of assumptions:
1. This is in relation to tourneys (maybe SnGs in particular)
2. The stage of the tourney would affect what the proper play would be
Early in the tourney, I'm check/folding this on the turn. There are other opportunities to get my money in with the best of it; furthermore, too many hands exist that dominate you now: QJ, J10, K9, AK, AQ, any Q for that matter, made flush, hell even 89 has got you.
Later in an SnG, I will have a better Idea of who bets what and calls with what. If I have a big stack I would bet the pot on flop, and bet 2/3 on the turn and fold to a re-raise on the turn.
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Spandrel
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 37
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Without a good read on my opponent, I'd probably just check it and be ready to muck it if any pressure was put back on me. With a potential straight draw, flush draw, and now higher top pair looking back at me from the board, there are just too many land mines between me and the finish line to go firing at that pot. Maybe that is the ultra-conservative play, but if it is early in a Tournament, I'm not comfortable committing so many chips to a board where I can be beaten in so many different ways.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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I was actually thinking about a ring game when I posted it, if that affects anything.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I don't think betting makes any sense. There are too many hands which would call on the flop and are now winning hands relative to your A-J. The board now suggests a number of straights and flushes, and even Q-J has you beaten now. The right move is to check-fold.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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i think the scenario is a little extreme and presents too many possibilities to beat the AJ, i think it would have been more appropriate to say what if the turn is a 9 off or perhaps a low spade - then how do you approach the baord?
in this case you're not worried about an over card, as you still have TPTK however there is either a str8 or a flush possibility.
what's the best play with that scenario - throw out 1/2 pot and see if you get raised, and if called check/fold the riv ?
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JeffreyGB
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03-11-2005, 09:44 PM
Post subject: Re: Scare card: check vs bet
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#8 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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bspahn, I agree completely that it's too extreme. I wasn't looking for thoughts just about that specific scenario. I also wanted thoughts on if other cards that complete one draw or the other comes. I guess that wasn't communicated clearly on my part, but that's what I intended wit h
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
How do you play it from here? What if it had been any random spade? A blank suited Q? As?
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I'll specifically ask then: say a 9d hits instead of the nightmare Qs. What do you do then? What about if the scare card that comes is the As, giving you top two, but completing the flush?
To everyone that said check/fold in the above (I definitely see the value, because of the extreme nature of "every draw now beats you" scenario I gave), what if the new card only helps one of those draws?
Again, I'm thinking ring games. Assume roughly equal stacks.
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eeeee
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 906
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1) It's dependent on the opponents
2)- 3/4 the time check/fold
1/8 the time raise 2/3 pot
1/8 the time check/call  (the new check raise) or CHECK RAISE. 
3) It's dependent on the opponents
Edited: I just noticed two players called.
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BeeJall
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 81
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I would check/fold. You're simply beat by too many hands.
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thestrokes
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 119
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I didnt read all the responses but i voted for a normal bet, especially if its a cash game. I fi show weakness then (at least at my home games i play at) ill most likely be raised. if i make a normal bet and they raise, ill fold. if i make a normal bet and they smooth call, i would most likely raise again on the river putting the preassure back on them, unless i suspect some foul play. This bet will probobly take down the pot often enough also.
I think it will make money in the long run at my home games at least.
Just my thought, show me what wrong with it.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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Don't pay off the draw.
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