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Thunder
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07-08-2008, 04:02 PM
Post subject: Rule of showdown
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Can this be clarified please?
I was under the impression that at showdown, all opponents turn over their cards but I have been told that this isn't always necessary.
Thx.
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Lucix
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11
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You can muck at showdown in most live games.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Only the winner has to show. Losing hands may muck without showing.
Quote:
THE SHOWDOWN
1. A player must show all cards in the hand face-up on the table to win any part of the pot.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)
3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
6. If you show cards to an active player during a deal, any player at the table has the right to see those exposed cards. Cards shown during or after a deal to a player not in the pot should be shown to all players when the deal is finished.
7. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot.
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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Thx for that.
So one hand has to be shown to be declared the winner. In reality then, unless someone was on a bluff that missed, both hands are usually gonna be turned up to determine the winner?
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HubertCumberdale
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 11
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You can muck if you lost
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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Only one hand needs to be shown, if nobody can beat that then nobody else need show their cards.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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If everyone else mucks, you win by default and dont have to showdown I dont believe. Occassionally this means you really can call-bluff, but I wouldnt recommend it  .
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Just playing to improve.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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The first person to show the hand is the one who put in the last raise, or if the hand was checked around the first player to act.
After the first person showed his hand other players may show or muck as they see fit.
An exception for this rule is usually made in tournaments when all players contesting the pot are all in before the river is dealt, in this case the cards are flipped once action on the betting round in which the betting occurred is completed
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Thunder
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 561
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TLR,
Thx for That! really made it clear!
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Thunder, here is a good example that actually happened in a home game I was playing in.
The board was 88775 with no flush possibilities. UTG player turned over 66 and me (being the dealer) declared that he had two pair, 8's and 7's with a 6 kicker. The two other players in the hand both mucked their cards giving the pot to the UTG player.
Now this is where it gets funny.
One of the players was very new to Hold-em, but the other was a lady that plays in our home games a lot and is horrible. When they both mucked their cards I just couldn't believe it so I looked at them and said "You mean neither of you had a card higher than a 6?". Both of them, almost simultaneously, said "Yea, I had an Ace, but he had pocket 6's."
Needless to say quite the uproar ensued when they both realized that their Ace beat his six and they would have split the pot.
Oh, and yes I walked out of there with a ton of money. And no, I am not inviting any of you to this game. 
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
Thunder, here is a good example that actually happened in a home game I was playing in.
The board was 88775 with no flush possibilities. UTG player turned over 66 and me (being the dealer) declared that he had two pair, 8's and 7's with a 6 kicker. The two other players in the hand both mucked their cards giving the pot to the UTG player.
Now this is where it gets funny.
One of the players was very new to Hold-em, but the other was a lady that plays in our home games a lot and is horrible. When they both mucked their cards I just couldn't believe it so I looked at them and said "You mean neither of you had a card higher than a 6?". Both of them, almost simultaneously, said "Yea, I had an Ace, but he had pocket 6's."
Needless to say quite the uproar ensued when they both realized that their Ace beat his six and they would have split the pot.
Oh, and yes I walked out of there with a ton of money. And no, I am not inviting any of you to this game. |
wow, they suck
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,072
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Only the winner has to show. Losing hands may muck without showing.
Quote:
THE SHOWDOWN
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)
3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
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In home games (and some B&M casinos), there are two ways to evaluate hands: "cards speak" as described above, and player "declare." "Cards speak" means that the dealer (or even another player) compare the hands that are turned face up at showdown and say which is the winner.
The traditional gamblers hated this (which is becoming ever more common thanks to tournaments and online poker), enjoying the luxury of raking pots when less experienced players misread their hands (like Gator's example, above).
Example, hero has TT and villain has AKs on a KT862 board with the 2 completing the flush. Suppose villain turns his hand up and says "top pair, ace kicker." When playing "declare," that's his hand, and then hero says "set of tens," shows the cards and takes down the pot. In "declare," having another player say something about the flush would be a violation of the rules.
The common advice for noobies in B&M casinos is turn their cards face up at EVERY showdown they're in and sit quietly. 99% of the time, the dealer or another player will say what the hand is and whether or not it wins. The "cards speak" tradition will generally win out in a Vegas casino, and an inexperienced player won't be penalized for their inability to read every hand correctly. This is obviously what the two Aces players in Gator's story should have done.
I HATE "declare" since, imo, it victimizes inexperienced players and DISCOURAGES them from wanting to play more, especially if they find out what happened.
BTW, there are myriad examples of pros mucking the best hand. Phil Helmuth caught a slip like this in a tournament, and the pro who initially raked the pot was outraged when he was forced to split it.
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