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EasyT
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07-05-2005, 04:00 PM
Post subject: Rule Clarification
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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I was playing a home game over the weekend and had tough situation.
Two of us in the hand and we make it to the river. The last card comes out and I check it to the other player. He thinks a second and says, "What you got?", to which I answer, "A pair of Kings", turning up my hand. Of course he what he MEANT to say was, "How many chips do you have left?" because he wanted to put me all in. And he did have the better hand (two pair).
Our home game is friendly, and there was no argument that ensued. He just accepted the pot, and we dealt the next hand.
But what's the rule on this, say in a casino? He did not say 'check' or tap the table. He just asked a question which was open to misunderstanding. Is he wrong for mis-stating his question, or am I wrong for turning up my hand before he decided to check or bet?
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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You were wrong to turn your cards up. He has every right to ask questions to try and get a read, but you don't have to answer any questions besides the amount of chips you have left, or what your previous action was.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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I thought that what the players says is binding? Like if he throws in chips but says check. The check is the only move he can make there after saying “check” isn’t it? If so then wouldn’t this be the same situation where the verbal command stands?
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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I figured I was the one to jump the gun on this. I understood him to imply, "I'll check too, so show me your hand," which was in error.
In a casino, could a person ask a similarly ambiguous question, hoping to get the person to answer or show, and THEN be allowed to place a bet??????!!!
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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In a casino I believe that your hand (being misplayed) would be automatically folded. You were wrong for revealing your hand.
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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Is this right???
It is somehow a misplay of your hand to show it?! In SS, Doyle Brunson mentions showing his hand to his opponent to try to evoke a reaction (get a tell) from his opponent before making a call on the river. I agree that here it's going to be a disadvantage to show my hand, but an automatic loss of the pot??
I'm not disagreeing that I was too quick to show my hand. But surely this is not all that uncommon. I think I've seen the same miscommunication between two people before.
I just want a DEFINITIVE answer on how this would be handled in Vegas (so that I can handle it the same way in my home games). Can somebody quote a resource, or affirm what they witnessed in a casino?
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cartilago77
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tijuana Donkey Show
Posts: 180
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At The Borgata in Atlantic City a few weeks ago our table had a question about the legalities of your hand becoming exposed. Play was down to heads up on the river and a situation arose where one of the players had made a bet and the other player, in think about calling/raising, exposed an Ace to gain information (I think this is how it went down. I had a few dozen drinks rolling through me at the time). Some people started to complain that he exposed his hand which makes his cards dead. Others said the exact opposite. The dealer had no clue.
The poker room manager was brought over. He flip flopped on his answer. One second it was an illegal move and the next it was not illegal but frowned upon. It appeared that his final ruling was that while it is not iillegal, it is frowned upon and if anyone did it again he would punish them with a "time out" from the table. Everyone conjured memories of 3rd grade and kind of blew him off.
So although it is not illegal Jim McManus will yell at your for disgracing the game if you are caught in a hand with him and try this move.
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cartilago77
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tijuana Donkey Show
Posts: 180
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Here is what Cardplayer has to say about situation arising in a tournament:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...php?a_id=14107
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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Thanks cartilago.
That's the source I was looking for. Unfortunately, I'm still not sure I have my answer. It says showing is not permitted, will be penalized, but will not make the hand dead.
I hope somebody stumbles across this post who can shed more light on this particular situation.
EasyT
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DoGGz
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It often depends on the card room rules. These can vary. In general, just don't do it. Because best case it will be frowned on, and worst case your hand is dead.
If this is a home game just discuss it and come up with your own ruling, so that in the future you can play it correctly.
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EasyT
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yo Mamma
Posts: 834
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Thanks, doggz. I'm not in the habit of showing, but this happened on a miscommunication. I'll bring it up again tonight when the guys come over, and we'll decide up front how we'll handle this in the event that it happens again.
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