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montimus
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09-25-2004, 10:13 AM
Post subject: Rule Check-turning over cards before an play has been made
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 154
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Got a rule question...
So I played a small home game tonight. It came down to me and another guy heads up.
During one hand we had some decent preflop betting. The flop comes. I decide to go all-in to buy the pot. The other guy sits and ponders for a moment. Without saying "I call" or "I fold" he turns over his cards. After he turned them over I grabbed for the chips. He said "no, I called" to which I replied "you can't do that, you never made an official act on my all-in bet, and since you showed your cards without acting while our chips were still in play that means you forfeit/fold the hand." He said "no, I saw Hellmuth(or someone) show a hand before they folded it on the WSOP."
I'm pretty sure I've seen an instance before on the WTP where someone showed his hand while his chips were still in play and he was forced to fold the hand.
So what's the official ruling on this one? Since he flipped over his cards before he officially acted(with no impliction of whether to fold or call) is he forced to fold and I win the hand?
My arguement stems from the fact that if he flips his cards and I see them, he'd be able to see my reaction and have the extra advantage of seeing if I reacted and gave away a tell .
Btw, he ended up beating me...I pushed him all in when I had pocket 7s...he called w/AJ, rivered his jack...then on the final hand, I pushed all in with 2pr, js and 10s(JJ10 on the board, I had a 10)...he called and hit a king to give him a higher 2 pr  Needless to say I was a bit perturbed...mainly because I had been playing some great poker(stole some big pots with nothing and sucked out tons of money when I hit my hands).
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Before doing anything he should have made a declaration as to what his actions were going to be. At a Casino he would have been reprimanded, although I'm not exactly sure as to wether he would have been forced to fold or not.
That's the one thing about friendly home games. People think they can do anything. If it were my home game he would have been forced to fold. And told no cards are to be shown until the pot has been awarded.
You can also check out Home Poker Tourney for The Official Rules of Tournament Poker.
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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{Moved from Poker Etcetera}
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I went through Robert's Rules..
I couldn't find anything that says you forfeit the pot if you show your cards. Here is what I did find:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.
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In the holdem Section:
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Originally Posted by Robert
6. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot.
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So I guess the question is, is turning your cards face up equivalent to throwing them away? Well if you look at Robert's section on Dead Hands and folding, there is nothing about turning your cards face up.
Certainly your friend's action was "irregular", but technically according to Robert's Rules I can't find anything that says he has to forfeit the pot. I would have to say the hand is still live until he says call or fold.
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Xianti
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: facebook.com/xianti
Posts: 5,289
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http://www.homepokertourney.com/showcards.htm
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 15 - Tournaments. 21. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead).
http://www.pokertda.com/rules4_inter...sults_page.asp
35. Expose. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
A penalty is typically a forced time out of the game, i.e., the player may not play another hand for 10 minutes.
Certainly, it's very poor etiquette and shouldn't be allowed to happen again.
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brianh111
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wheeling, WV
Posts: 17
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Quote:
My arguement stems from the fact that if he flips his cards and I see them, he'd be able to see my reaction and have the extra advantage of seeing if I reacted and gave away a tell .
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I believe I read somewhere that, exactly for the reason you stated above, this can be a good strategic move. I can't cite a better source than the previous posters have, but I believe the move is legal, and his hand is not declared dead.
I wouldn't think you'd want to do that much in a friendly home game, and I couldn't imagine it would be very popular to make it worthwhile in a low stakes game either.
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I'd rather stay in the Shana Hiatt than the Paris Hilton
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by brianh111
Quote:
My arguement stems from the fact that if he flips his cards and I see them, he'd be able to see my reaction and have the extra advantage of seeing if I reacted and gave away a tell .
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I believe I read somewhere that, exactly for the reason you stated above, this can be a good strategic move. I can't cite a better source than the previous posters have, but I believe the move is legal, and his hand is not declared dead.
I wouldn't think you'd want to do that much in a friendly home game, and I couldn't imagine it would be very popular to make it worthwhile in a low stakes game either. |
Looking at all the above posts. And disregarding my personal home rules. I guess it can be safely said that the hand is live until a declaration is made by the player regardless of wether cards are face up or not. The next time you guys play. There should be some groundrules laid out.
Playing the devil's advocate, it is also a breech of poker etiquette to touch any chips in the pot until it has been officially awarded. And since he never made a verbal declaration.....you get the picture. So maybe download a copy of the rules to keep handy, and at the beginning of the game, tell all players that any action must be preceeded by a verbal intention.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Since it is a home game tou shoudl come to an agreement that the majority of players feel comfertable about and lpay according to it
In our home game showing your cards is considered a valid - although rarely used move
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Here's a similar event that happend at my table in Atlantic City. It almost resulted in an assault and there was a lot of yelling for about 1/2 hour following the hand.
Heads up. Player 1 bet the flop and was called by Player 2. Player 1 bet hard on the turn. Player 2 called. On river, Player 1 goes AI for his last $100.
Board was 55xxx.
Following the AI by Player 1, player 2 exposed 95 for a set of 5's. Player 2 did not make a verbal declaration of "call," nor did he push any chips in response to Player 1 AI.
Player 1 then turns up his A5 for same set better kicker.
Player 2 then says "I no call!"
Well, obviously Player 1 goes off on Player 2 it was only another $100 to call and he would not have laid down the set. Anyway, Player 2 was not forced to put his chips into the pot. In fact, I think Player 1 hand Player 2 covered and it would have cost Player 2 the remainder of his chips.
This was a cash game.
It was a shady play but player 2 held on to the remainder of his chips.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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Just as a side note. In case anyone was wondering just who the heck Robert is. It's Bob Ciaffone aka "The Poker Coach".
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nick87
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 53
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What about saying your cards out loud? My friend tells us his hole cards almost everytime when he gets them. Most of the time he is telling the truth, but everyonce in a while he'll lie. I figure you can't do that, you cannot say your hand outloud, but no one agrees with me.
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Autocratic
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 70
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by nick87
What about saying your cards out loud? My friend tells us his hole cards almost everytime when he gets them. Most of the time he is telling the truth, but everyonce in a while he'll lie. I figure you can't do that, you cannot say your hand outloud, but no one agrees with me.
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I think most tournaments and such leave it up to the director's discretion when a hand can be announced or not (also taking into account what he actually has). But I have no idea how it's actually done. Which brings me to my next point: this post was useless.
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jujubeast6000
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 18
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I heard that years ago, Phil Helmuth used to do this in the WSOP. He would move all-in on a big pot, just to win the pot. He didn't want to get called and lose to a worse hand outdrawing him. I think one time he moved all-in and the other guy was thinking for some time. Phil flips over AA and the other guy folds. Phil showed, because in a tournament you want to win the most chips. The WSOP then changed their rules to prevent this.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Doyle Brunson also talks about exposing your cards to the other player in a situation where you think he might have 4 of a kind, but aren't sure. I think he mentions he has done this when holding a set of aces or a big full. He uses the reaction from the player upon seeing his hand to help judge whether to call or not. This is in Super System.
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montimus
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 154
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jujubeast6000
I heard that years ago, Phil Helmuth used to do this in the WSOP. He would move all-in on a big pot, just to win the pot. He didn't want to get called and lose to a worse hand outdrawing him. I think one time he moved all-in and the other guy was thinking for some time. Phil flips over AA and the other guy folds. Phil showed, because in a tournament you want to win the most chips. The WSOP then changed their rules to prevent this.
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So in the WSOP, is showing your cards while your chips are in play without announcing your intent allowed?
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johnnyawe
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,064
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I know we're beating this to death, but something else that needs to be discussed is whether this happened in a cash game or tournament game, and why that would matter.
Typically, the rules about talking during a hand and exposing cards are much more strict in a tournament setting..
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montimus
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 154
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheNatural
I know we're beating this to death, but something else that needs to be discussed is whether this happened in a cash game or tournament game, and why that would matter.
Typically, the rules about talking during a hand and exposing cards are much more strict in a tournament setting..
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It was a tournament game.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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My understanding is that this is disallowed in tournaments because it is to the other players' advantage if one of the players involved in the hand is busted out.
I don't know the official rule, but I've seen in allowed in NL cash games.
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
Posts: 1,412
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I thought talking about what cards you may or may not have during a hand is called "Table Talk", and is frowned upon?
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fish8865
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04-15-2005, 07:37 AM
Post subject: I had the same basic thing happen
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#20 (permalink)
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1
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I was playing the other night and had the same thing happen. I also remember reading in Super System 2 that same passage about turning over to see the reaction but I can't remember what he was talking about. The person who said it can you find it for me and let me know where it is so I can show the guys I play with?
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evman150
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Doyle Brunson also talks about exposing your cards to the other player in a situation where you think he might have 4 of a kind, but aren't sure. I think he mentions he has done this when holding a set of aces or a big full. He uses the reaction from the player upon seeing his hand to help judge whether to call or not. This is in Super System.
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Antiquated rule me thinks.
He and his collaborators (Mike Caro especially) talk about showing your hand quite a bit. I'm pretty sure there has been a change to the rule concerning this play.
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Light years ahead of the competition.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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I can speak from experience on this now.
Cash games - exposed cards are not automatically mucked. I had a situation at a table the other day where UTG bet his last 4 dollars on the flop. He boldy proclaimed "ALL-IN" and flipped his cards face up in front of him.
He flipped over Q9 with a board of 8JT, the nut straight. The only problem - there were 4 others in the hand who were not all-in. We played the rest of the hand out with his cards sitting there face up, once I reprimanded him for showing his cards. He did end up losing - another player made a club flush to scoop both pots. The other players were pissed, and rightfully so, but his hand was still live. Too much TV?
The most that will happen is that the floor person will be informed and if he does it again, he may be asked to leave.
I have also had times at the NL table where it has come down to HU action. UTG makes a big bet that appears to be out of line. The caller asks the bettor to see one. The bettor shows the opp one of his hole cards. Heads up, I don't really care wtf they do. They can both play the hand face up if they want. It's when there are more than 2 people involved that it matters.
Tournament rules may be different from tourney to tourney, but I have yet to hear of an instance where someone's hand was killed because they exposed it. If it becomes a problem with an individual, they might be warned that "next time your hand will be killed". I don't have much experience with tournaments.
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DogOnMySide
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 458
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Yeah i dont think the main problem is that he exposed his cards, it's more that he made no announcement as to what he was doing beforehand.
I dont see any problem with exposing your own hole cards if you have already acted - the only possible advantage is in the reactions of the other players.
To flip cards, see the result and then say "oh, i called that by the way" would be met with a very definite no, you did not from me. You MUST state 'call' otherwise you have mucked your cards.
But then i'm not a croupier.
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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Poker Royale, Battle of the Sexes...........
Layne Flack showed his cards to Vahedi and it was ruled dead. So, it can happen, but in this case the rules were laid out before the tourney started. You're best to ask before you sit down at a table.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnnyawe
I went through Robert's Rules..
I couldn't find anything that says you forfeit the pot if you show your cards. Here is what I did find:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.
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In the holdem Section:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
6. You must declare that you are playing the board before you throw your cards away; otherwise you relinquish all claim to the pot.
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So I guess the question is, is turning your cards face up equivalent to throwing them away? Well if you look at Robert's section on Dead Hands and folding, there is nothing about turning your cards face up.
Certainly your friend's action was "irregular", but technically according to Robert's Rules I can't find anything that says he has to forfeit the pot. I would have to say the hand is still live until he says call or fold. |
I think, in spirit, what happened in this specific situation is very different from an 'exposed' or 'flashed' card. The player completely turned his hand over, face up on the table without saying that he was calling or folding.
If his cards we face down, then it's a no-brainer, his hand is dead/mucked.
If his cards are face up, we're definitely talking about a gray area here. But, I tend to agree with montimus, the other guy could derive benefit from seeing your reaction to his cards, and then have the advantage of delcaring his fold, or call action afterwards.
Since it's a home game, decide amonst all players what you want the rule to be, and they stick to it and enforce it. If it was my home game and I made the house rules, I'd want all call/fold/raise intentions declared verbally and/or through the motion of chips to the center (no string bets allowed of course). Under my rules, I'd want this to be a dead hand unless he said 'I call' before turning over his cards.
On a side note, in most casinos, talking about hands, the board etc, possible str8s, flushes etc. while cards are still in play is technically a violation of the rules. BUT, I've never seen anything done about it when the rule is broken (other than the dealer saying shh, or don't do that). At today's tables, there's so much table-talk, that they'd be kicking people out, and killing hands routinely if in fact, those were the penalties.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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while this is just my opinion on it, i think showing your cards without saying a word means you have yet to act. bad assumption on your part that he was folding. he can't very well call, then expose his cards to you to see your reaction. and it would be retarded to be like "i haven't decided if i'm calling or folding yet... but take a lookie at my nice 5 4 suited!"
but, this is a home game. while i think he was fine, just pick a rule and go with it, its really not a big deal so long as everyone knows what it is.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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I was in a cardroom near Dallas where the rules were out on the dry-erase board. Flipping your cards lead to a dead hand. This was good for me when I raised UTG+1 with 77 preflop. One caller, maybe MP4 or Button, but either way he calls. Lemme try this with the fancy card logos.
Me:  
MP4: called with  
Flop: :Ad::Kh:
I bet twice my original raise, MP4 flips his cards and say "that was the worst fucking flop for me. It counted as a fold and I collect the pot.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
I was in a cardroom near Dallas where the rules were out on the dry-erase board. Flipping your cards lead to a dead hand. This was good for me when I raised UTG+1 with 77 preflop. One caller, maybe MP4 or Button, but either way he calls. Lemme try this with the fancy card logos.
Me:
MP4: called with
Flop: :Ad::Kh:
I bet twice my original raise, MP4 flips his cards and say "that was the worst fucking flop for me. It counted as a fold and I collect the pot. |
Even if it wasn't ruled a fold, so what?
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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This was one of my first times live outside of my dorm or home games. The stakes were a bit higher and I was a n00b in my reactions. I couldn't keep the "oh shit" factor away from my face.
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