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bigslikk
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06-28-2007, 09:23 PM
Post subject: Rock Garden
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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I've thought about this a little, but I want to be certain. How do you beat a table completely full of rocks (besides leaving it)? Last night I was at a table of rocks who:
-preflop, played nothing but ace high, double paint, or pocket pairs (also JT, QT, KT, AT)
-almost NEVER raised preflop (but would call raises with above hands); might raise with KQ+ , TT+ (people that night limped with JJ, AA)
Post flop- need top pair or better to minbet, or else check/fold away
Would chase high flush draws + oesd's
-trapping with / slowplaying top pair, two pair, etc.
-never, ever, EVER bluff nor even semi-bluff a draw.
Okay long story short, at this table raising was aids and bluffing was gonnorea. Every flop it would be checked across to the holder of top pair, who would soon reveal himself, causing the table to fold around. Headsup and three-handed hands would be checked all the way to the river, where queen-high would win (bluff please!). One hand a guy with quad kings had LIMPED KK preflop, checked his top set on the flop, and finally minbet his quads on the river, to which everyone folded (the rocks are aware of each other as rocks). Many times the big blind would win the small blind since the whole table folded preflop. etc. etc. etc.
*one more note: as the table became more + more shorthanded (eventually headsup) people did not adjust starting hand requirements much at all
I was not playing @ this table only watching (long story) but there's a high probability that I will in the future and so would like to know (specifically) how to beat a rock garden. Thanks.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Lagg it up, shut down to resistance.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,515
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I hear small ball poker works for this kind of table. I really haven't read any good information on it but maybe you could look into that.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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^^^^ what they said -
hopefully you can get 1 of them to tilt and change the table atmosphere at least a bit - god i hate those tables -
I would just stab and stab and stab -
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this space intentionally left blank
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JJDAMAN
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UVIC
Posts: 106
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Lagg it up, shut down to resistance.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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Online or Live?
Stakes? California rake?
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,785
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LOL Lock happy or did payroll screw up today?
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Like the others said, lag it up. Limp lots of draw hands with position and raise the flops as bluffs and for free cards.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
Like the others said, lag it up. Raise lots of draw hands with position and raise the flops as bluffs and for free cards.
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FYP.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,515
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I like limping them better than raising them b/c I wanna have full stacks in effect if I'm going to be outplaying these players postflop.
Shallowing the stacks out with drawing hands seems counterproductive, I could be wrong, and if I am feel free to correct me.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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this prolly isnt great advice, but anyway...
i actually, start to play their game a bit. LAGging it up is obviously best, but i suck at LAG. i cant handle the variance.
instead, i would (well, first, i'd leave) limp almost everything marginal. i would steal blinds with my "decent" stuff, but not much else. thats where you can pad your rate, though. if you know they are rocky, you should be able to steal blinds with pure crap...until they start to stand up to you...which may be never.
it seems like you have your ranges narrowed down already on you opponents, so, trust them. start limping undercards that are connected or suited...preferrably both.
look for cheap monsters, and let the rocks call down with hands you know you beat.
and, you should be able to draw cheap with all that checking going on. and bet very small when you hit. the more i think about it, minraising, as a habit here, ought to be more effective than at standard tables.
like i said, thats not the best strategy...LAG is by far. but you would hold your own by limping marginals...so long as your not card dead.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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Live, and no rake. So i guess advertising a moron play would work?
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dstir2
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 144
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when it comes to rock gardens i enjoy using roy rounder's cash game strategy. it utilizes position and continutation betting post flop, the two biggest weaknesses of a rock's reading skills. essentially you raise any pp, suited connectors, or ak+aq you get in middle to late position. if the flop misses, cont. bet, where most rocks will fold unless they have a great draw or tptk. if the flop does help, you're hand is hidden and you just suck them in to calling your monster. eventually, even if you've lost some initial money because of not catching friendly flops, you've invested in your table image. the opps are now aware of your aggro style and range of hands, thus effectively de-rockifying them. when you pick up aa-qq and raise 6xbb, you'll get anywhere from 4-5 callers if you've been doing it right. i used this strategy on a 50nl table at bodog one night when i was bored. after just two rotations of hands at the table i got an opp with 160$ to call my aks with his ajo down to my ai push at the river. the board read 97552, and i had hit my flush after the turn. after the hand he typed "omg. how did you get me to do that?" and immediately left. it's kind of unorthodox, but i do believe the best way to play a rock is to develop a mind game where he becomes the laggy.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,204
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With no rake you should be stealing small to medium pots left and right for a nice little profit.
The decision becomes how hard do you push. If you do this too much the rocks will adapt and give you more action and stories about stacking AK unimproved aside, you may be better off shearing the sheep instead of skinning them and starting a riot. Or just start the riot... your money man.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
Like the others said, lag it up. Raise lots of draw hands with position and raise the flops as bluffs and for free cards.
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FYP. |
I have tried both and found limping preflop in late position nets a higher amount overall based upon bigspenda's reasoning (MP would likely be a raise though to buy the button). If I hit my draw, I am pumping the flop. Also, the way the rocks are described above, they are likely beating me preflop, but by allowing so many limpers they are playing into a reverse implied odds situation to our advantage.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Rocks are generally cautious with decent, vulnerable hands, but their bet it properly (half pot or more). According to your description, those players are not rocks. They are weak-tights, habitual slowplayers, minbet minraise donkeys. In their "standard" mode they make a lot of speculative limp-calls, to outflop big pair and play fit or fold on flop, do stupid crap like minbet lots of flops etc. In "tilt" mode (after folding 12th time to c-bet) they are getting ready to go deep with marginal hands in order to "make a stand".
Quote:
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preflop, played nothing but ace high, double paint, or pocket pairs (also JT, QT, KT, AT)
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Find their breaking points for top pairs and middle pairs. Do they call turns with draws? Do they call 2nd barrel pressure bets with marginal hands? Are they able to let go of overpair if you send them message "AA/TP no goot"?
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Quote:
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almost NEVER raised preflop (but would call raises with above hands); might raise with KQ+ , TT+ (people that night limped with JJ, AA)
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Add some connectors to raising range (doesn't have to be suited) in late position. You will combine FE of c-bets when they miss and free river cards to OESD's (to crack a pair/set if they call flop and check turn).
Quote:
Post flop- need top pair or better to minbet, or else check/fold away
Would chase high flush draws + oesd's
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Great. If their flop standards are THAT high, then c-bet ANY board heads-up. Try to read, how they play those draws. Do they call turn PSB's? Are they capable of bluffing busted draws? (probably not, because they are weak tights). Second barrel made hands more often, make more pressure bets. Force them to make sets and flushes to play against you. If you retain tight image while doing it, you can double up quickly without showing down even once.
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-trapping with / slowplaying top pair, two pair, etc.
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Free river cards to draws, 3barreling high overpairs (if they call 3 barrels with TP), b/3b AI with sets AND overpairs (if they get pissed and start to check/raise top pairs).
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-never, ever, EVER bluff nor even semi-bluff a draw.
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Fold marginal hands if they bet. Semibluff yourself to get them to fold their marginal hands. If you get called on semibluff and make hand, then bet big.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dstir2
when it comes to rock gardens i enjoy using roy rounder's cash game strategy. it utilizes position and continutation betting post flop, the two biggest weaknesses of a rock's reading skills. essentially you raise any pp, suited connectors, or ak+aq you get in middle to late position. if the flop misses, cont. bet, where most rocks will fold unless they have a great draw or tptk. if the flop does help, you're hand is hidden and you just suck them in to calling your monster. eventually, even if you've lost some initial money because of not catching friendly flops, you've invested in your table image. the opps are now aware of your aggro style and range of hands, thus effectively de-rockifying them. when you pick up aa-qq and raise 6xbb, you'll get anywhere from 4-5 callers if you've been doing it right. i used this strategy on a 50nl table at bodog one night when i was bored. after just two rotations of hands at the table i got an opp with 160$ to call my aks with his ajo down to my ai push at the river. the board read 97552, and i had hit my flush after the turn. after the hand he typed "omg. how did you get me to do that?" and immediately left. it's kind of unorthodox, but i do believe the best way to play a rock is to develop a mind game where he becomes the laggy. |
Huh? That's basically how I play FR, and I'm a tagg. If I'm playing well and getting cards I might make an aware lagg play back at me but the tight passives almost never do. I'd be surprised if you're even playing 20% of hands - hardly loose!
(and you do know that usually you DON'T want to be called when bluff-pushing a full stack, right?)
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dstir2
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 144
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biondino wrote:
Huh? That's basically how I play FR, and I'm a tagg. If I'm playing well and getting cards I might make an aware lagg play back at me but the tight passives almost never do. I'd be surprised if you're even playing 20% of hands - hardly loose!
(and you do know that usually you DON'T want to be called when bluff-pushing a full stack, right?)
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playing any pocket pair, suited connector, suited gapper, ax-suited, ak, and aq is more than 20%, and RAISING standard with all of them is not tagg by any means. and the strategy does not entail pushing on a bluff, you have to have reading skills in order to manipulate the rocks post flop. even if you have to put the brakes on, you're table image is set. thus, when you do pick up a monster or flop one after limping, you get payed off big. in no way do i recommend betting recklessly, but you do have to cont. bet in hands that you've raised preflop, and using this system for a few hands will get you in an opportunity to destack a suspicious rock.
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