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Miffed22001
Old 07-08-2005, 07:39 PM     Post subject: River tempter #1 (permalink)  
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 Ive been having a closer look at my river play recently trying to figure out if there is any way of sucking more money out of other players when i know i have the best hand.
Is there any substance in the idea that if you catch the river for the straight or flush (for a decent price etc) and its the best hand then its worth only making a smaller bet to entice the call rather than maybe forcing the fold with a bigger bet?
I recognise i can drop the fuking hammer (nice fnord ) but that wont always get called will it? Instead is it sometimes worth just making a small bet that is more likely to be called?
I suppose an example would be when someone catches second pair and only bets a little at it, everyone folds, and you get odds to chase a flush or oesd. In this situation there would be too many reasons to fold to an all in or big bet by the river, whereas maybe a smaller raise or bet would get called or even better raised?
Any thoughts welcome.
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Sed
Old 07-08-2005, 07:52 PM #2 (permalink)  
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it all depends on reads...

When I catch a river strt against a weak player and he bets into me, I push because I know if he liked his hand enough to bet the river, there is a high probability that he will like it enough to call an all in. If I am first to act or he checks to me I'll bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot and see if he wants to look me up.

Against stronger players, you need to entice them by giving them odds to call based on the possibility that you are bluffing. Up to about 30-40% of the pot will get called by lesser hands and occasionally get raised when he things you are trying to buy it.

Oh yeah, if they are drawing, you have to work on sucking the money out of them on the flop and turn trying to get them committed to calling your smallish (compared to the pot) river bet... only a moron will call a big river bet with a busted draw but there are morons playing poker who will do it if the pot is big enough and your bet enticing enough.

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boyobach
Old 07-08-2005, 08:57 PM #3 (permalink)  

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As with most decisions, i think it all depends on your read of the player and your relative stack sizes.

If you know the guy finds it difficult to lay down hands and you put him on a half decent hand, then make him pay for it. But if he is quite tight with his calls then give him a little teaser.

With regard to stack sizes, if either of you has a short stack and an allin is less than 2 x pot.....then push it in. I reckon.
pocket Jacks eh?

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CANT WIN AGAINST 'EM
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underminedsk
Old 07-09-2005, 12:18 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Ive been thinking alot about this lately too. Originally my play has always been to "drop the fuking hammer" on the river, and hope they suck enough to call. More recently though, I have switched to value betting rivers to induce more calls and hopefully a raise.

Now though, I think I'm finally getting a read on when I think I can get paid off huge, so thats helping alot too.
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boyobach
Old 07-09-2005, 07:29 PM #5 (permalink)  

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Yeah...i think that is what it is all about.

Getting a feel for how much the other guy is prepared to pay. I think this is really starting to kick in with me too.

You need to transport yourself into the mind of your opponent and try to work out whether he thinks he has you beat. And if the answer is yes, how much should you bet for him to still believe it.

In this situation, all the other hands I have seen him play and all the hands he has seen me play flash through my mind and after the few seconds it takes for this to happen my gut will tell me exactly (to the nearest cent) how much i should bet.

It is usually just about right too
pocket Jacks eh?

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CANT WIN AGAINST 'EM
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Rondavu
Old 07-11-2005, 02:51 PM #6 (permalink)  
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The best way to get maximum value for your good hands is to have some friggin balls. Play within your bankroll and bet strong if you feel your hand is best at all times. STOP SLOWPLAYING! Don't worry about losing. If you made a good decision that's all that matters. It will all work out in the longrun. That's all that really matters. Worry about special circumstances later. There ARE good times to slowplay, but forget about doing it until you get into the habit of constantly fastplaying to improve your reads.

The biggest mistake new players make is to slowplay. What you don't understand is that by slowplaying you disguise your own strength, BUT also deny yourself information on your opponent.

This makes you miss out on improving your ability to read your opponents in the long run. Developing reads is most important at the beginning of your poker career. You won't go anywhere without them. Playing straight develops reads. Let me say it again. PLAYING STRAIGHT DEVELOPS READS. Do it, and you'll find yourself putting people on cards in no time. Then you can find opportunity to get tricky in the future.

Don't be tricky if your not good enough get tricky yet. A cunning opponent has already been down that road, and with much more experience will see right through what your doing and play against it.

That being said, always bet strong with the best hand, and you'll make more money.
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Element187
Old 07-11-2005, 02:56 PM #7 (permalink)  
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if you hit your hand on the river and its not obvious .. dropping the hammer is good in situations where the original bettor/raiser is projecting his hand his strong (like a set or something, overpair etc) more then likely youll get a call, because an enormous river bet looks like a bluff, and will get a sheriff to call almost everytime... if he was bluffing or trying to buy the pot, your going to get a fold here.

if they havent showed much strength on the hand, you just want to put out a small value bet.. big enough to get a lil more value, but small enough that it is callable (people love to show down hands for the right price) and sometimes you get lucky because your bet looks weak, they will come over the top of you.

but make sure you got the goods, as everyone always says, your only going to get called by better hands in most situations.
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Element187
Old 07-11-2005, 03:01 PM #8 (permalink)  
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lately i've been dropping the hammer everytime i hit the nut straight or flop a set.. im getting called about half the time or maybe more and its been hella profitable.. it looks like a bluff out of the blue all-in .. if it doesnt get called for a few times, relax, its pissing people off and eventually they will call you out of spite.
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