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mcatdog

06-17-2006, 03:09 PM Post subject: the river check-raise

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

This is a play that I almost never use that I would like to add to my arsenal of moves.

I have only check-raised the river 4 times in the past 30K hands, I'll go ahead and post all 4 of them to get the discussion started, but I hope this thread focuses more on general strategy than on my specific hands. All 4 times I had a pretty big hand if not the nuts. What are some good situations to check-raise the river with a very strong hand, and when should you consider a river check-raise bluff?

Hand #1 - I put villain on nothing much and was giving him a chance to bluff the river. He thought for a long time before calling with the straight.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($77.05)
Hero ($155.90)
UTG ($33.55)
MP ($155.30)
CO ($116.75)
Button ($116.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, 4

.
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 6

, 5

, 2

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG folds, MP calls $3, SB folds.

Turn: ($10) 9

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($10) 7

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $10, Hero raises to $35, MP calls $25.

Final Pot: $80

Hand #2 - This guy was a frequent floater, again I put him on nothing.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($102.95)
BB ($38.15)
Hero ($100)
Button ($59.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T

, 9

.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Pedro_chips folds.
Hero bets $7, Button calls $7.
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero calls $5.
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero raises to $44, Button folds.

Final Pot: $91.50

Hand #3
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($51.30)
Button ($37)
SB ($45.45)
Hero ($218.55)
UTG ($40.60)
MP ($39)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, 3

.
2 folds, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) T

, A

, K

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, CO calls $4, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($12) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $6, CO raises to $16, Hero calls $10.

River: ($44) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $10, Hero raises to $36, CO calls $20.30 (All-In).

Final Pot: $110.30

Hand #4
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($53.40)
Button ($34.05)
SB ($112.65)
Hero ($107.75)
UTG ($104.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7

, 9

.
1 fold, MP raises to $2, Button calls $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($6.50) J

, 6

, 8

(3 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4, Button folds.

Turn: ($14.50) 9

(2 players)
Hero bets $1, MP raises to $4, Hero calls $3.

River: ($22.50) 5

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $6, Hero raises to $20, MP raises to $43, Hero calls $23.

Final Pot: $108.50

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Miffed22001

06-17-2006, 03:31 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

Ill post this, but i know it wont be liked. From what i can see i knew the guy couldnt call on the river with just top pair against how id played it. Must have been drunk or something to pull this off or maybe it was just a read. I overbet the river a touch but then looking at it he called through two streets with top pair (he had AJ) so i had to overbet to force a fold i guess. The river isnt necesirly(sp) a brick against me here as ill bet any type of the board here if i think opp missed. However i was pretty sure he had Jx prob AJ and that the seven was semi-scary. Ill try dig out some more HHs.

- p-fax sitting in seat 1 with $196 .42
- bluenaz sitting in seat 2 with $45 .50 [ Dealer ]
- Miffed sitting in seat 3 with $144 .05
- mummrik sitting in seat 4 with $59 .07
- idgets sitting in seat 5 with $44 .98
- ometok sitting in seat 6 with $21 .49

Miffed posted the small blind - $0.25
mummrik posted the big blind - $0.50
** Dealing card to Miffed: 10 of Diamonds Queen of Diamonds
idgets raised - $1.00
ometok folded
p-fax folded
bluenaz folded
Miffed called - $1.00
mummrik called - $1.00

** Dealing the flop: 9 of Spades 7 of Diamonds Jack of Diamonds
Miffed checked
mummrik checked
idgets bet - $1.50
Miffed raised - $4.00
mummrik folded
idgets called - $4.00

** Dealing the turn: 4 of Clubs
Miffed bet - $9.00
idgets called - $9.00

** Dealing the river: 7 of Hearts
Miffed checked
idgets bet - $5.00
Miffed raised - $25.00
idgets folded
Miffed mucks: 10 of Diamonds Queen of Diamonds
Miffed mucks:
Miffed wins $57.05 from the main pot

(Edit)
Purely read based this. Opp cant call without something here and i thought a pp as a range would find this call tough. Opp could just have overs here but was weak/tight so may put me on something better. Simply the info in the hand told me i might get away with this on the river. Didnt raise enuf however for it to look like a real hand, good job my opps sucked and my read was good (damn interface :P )

Holdem No Limit $0.25/$0.50

: Seat 1 : briss has $36.85
: Seat 2 : McBain1 has $11.59
: Seat 3 : UKWldcts921 has $16.72
: Seat 4 : monkiii has $112.65
: Seat 5 : attyeze has $9.75
: Seat 6 : Mifopwnabot has $56.39
: attyeze is the dealer.
: Mifopwnabot posted small blind.
: briss posted big blind.
: Dealing Hole Cards.
: Seat 6 : Mifopwnabot has Kd Ad
: McBain1 called $0.50
: UKWldcts921 folded.
: monkiii called $0.50 and raised $2
: attyeze folded.
: Mifopwnabot called $2.25
: briss folded.
: McBain1 called $2
: Dealing flop.
: Board cards [8h 3h 2s]
: Mifopwnabot checked.
: McBain1 bet $1
: monkiii called $1
: Mifopwnabot called $1
: Dealing turn.
: Board cards [8h 3h 2s 3c]
: Mifopwnabot checked.
: McBain1 checked.
: monkiii checked.
: Dealing river.
: Board cards [8h 3h 2s 3c 5c]
: Mifopwnabot checked.
: McBain1 checked.
: monkiii bet $7
: Mifopwnabot called $7 and raised $8
: McBain1 folded.
: monkiii folded.
: Mifopwnabot wins $23.75 as the last player standing

Another smaller stakes hand. All i can say about the river is wtf. I think this has to be an old hand too as i didnt raise the flop something i didnt do as i learnt about new concepts. Btw, my table image encourages a call like this as does my table selection.

- markmac sitting in seat 1 with $15.85
- kingtonto sitting in seat 2 with $21.50
- Kasander sitting in seat 3 with $11.70
- englishrose sitting in seat 4 with $10.04 [Dealer]
- Miffed sitting in seat 5 with $31.60
- sdalen76 sitting in seat 6 with $60.95

Miffed posted the small blind - $0.10
sdalen76 posted the big blind - $0.20
** Dealing card to Miffed: 7 of Clubs, 9 of Clubs
markmac called - $0.20
kingtonto called - $0.20
Kasander called - $0.20
englishrose called - $0.20
Miffed called - $0.20
sdalen76 checked

** Dealing the flop: 2 of Hearts, 2 of Clubs, Queen of Clubs
Miffed checked
sdalen76 checked
markmac checked
kingtonto checked
Kasander bet - $0.80
englishrose called - $0.80
Miffed called - $0.80
sdalen76 folded
markmac folded
kingtonto folded

** Dealing the turn: 10 of Diamonds
Miffed checked
Kasander checked
englishrose bet - $1.00
Miffed called - $1.00
Kasander called - $1.00

** Dealing the river: Ace of Clubs
Miffed checked
Kasander checked
englishrose bet - $2.00
Miffed went all-in - $29.70
Kasander folded
englishrose went all-in - $6.04
englishrose shows: Queen of Hearts, Jack of Spades
Miffed wins $22.38 from the main pot

OMG i gots the converter to work. Played this awfully so again an old HH. I checked the river here because with the way the hand had panned out i though another river bet was going to happen despite the obvious danger card hitting. I may have not raised early because i didnt want the pot to get messy if someone flopped a hand they wanted to get all in with like a straight. I also wondered if another flush draw was out there. That makes little sense with me pushing but i thought against seriously horrible party players id get a bad bad call from a worse hand if i pushed and be damned if smeone had a better flush. I did lol.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($22)
UTG ($27.65)
UTG+1 ($25.35)
MP1 ($17.05)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($22.05)
CO ($30.13)
Button ($13.15)
Hero ($47.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9

, 8

. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG raises to $0.5, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero (poster) calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2) J

, T

, A

(4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $0.25, MP2 raises to $1, Hero calls $1, BB folds, UTG calls $0.75.

Turn: ($5) 3

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.25, MP2 raises to $1, Hero calls $1, UTG calls $0.75.

River: ($8) 2

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $3, Hero calls $44.55 (All-In), UTG calls $25.15 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $80.70

(Opp shows two pair AJ)

Miffed22001

06-17-2006, 04:10 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

As a general tactic c/r'ing the river is underused. We all know it. Lukie posted he had 30k hands or something and hadnt c/r'ed the river once lolol
My c/r % on the river is 7% and i had no idea it was this high. It may be a small number (i have no idea how much i should be doing it) but then i only tend to check raise when i know my opp will bet the river if i check it to him. The best examples of when it works i think is when either you play against an aggro opponent who might bluff on a misread or against players who have a nut type hand that is worse than yours (flush over flush is the best example)
Betting oop against aggressive players particularly in sb/bb vs button blind wars or in raised pots are when i feel it hapens most. A draw completes on the turn after i bet out on the flop ina raised pot and opp bets into danger turn card. I call then check/raise river.
One key problem i notice for me personally is that when i detect a lower flush draw vs mine i try to get a lot of money in on earlier streets so that i cant get outplayed on later streets. It can be of high variance at timesbut then when i have A8s vs 67s and its all in on the flop with a draw im winning a lot there.

Renton

06-18-2006, 12:56 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Someone clear this up for me please.

A river checkraise is a really strong play, as in its a play that represents some real strength. We agree with this here?

So how does checkraising the river maximise value with a great hand?

Look at it from the perspective of the victim being checkraised. We'll assume hes a somewhat decent and aggressive player (you wouldn't checkraise the river against a passive player).

Theres essentially five ranges of hands he has:

1. Hands he'll call a reasonable river bet with. (Fairly Wide)

2. Hands he'll fold to any reasonable bet with. (Wide)

3. Hands he'll raise with if bet into. (Narrow)

4. Hands he'll bet with if checked to. (Wide)

5. Hands he'll bet and call a check raise with. (Narrow)

Wouldn't you say ranges 3 and 5 would be negligibly different? I think theres few hands that villain would call a check-raise with that he wouldn't just raise if bet into.

It seems like the bet/3bet line on the river is almost always better, because we end up having position on deciding whether to call the biggest bet, and we haven't unveiled the strength of our hand like a checkraise would have.

So basically, it seems like you should only check-raise the river when you put him on one of those (few) hands that he'd call a checkraise with, but wouldn't raise with if bet into, such as a made str8 on a flush board when we have the flush or something of that nature.

Am I talking out my ass here?

CaptainMac

06-18-2006, 04:40 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2006

Location: Newcastle, England

Posts: 26

"A river checkraise is a really strong play, as in its a play that represents some real strength. We agree with this here?"

Personally i've never viewed a river c/r as a sign of real strength, the reason being this - when most people, esp at lower limits, have the nuts (or close to the nuts) on the river, they are scared of losing value by not betting, they are worried that the other player will check behind with a hand that he would call a raise with (say TPTK).

I have always seen river c/r as a desperate attempt at a bluff, as they check and detect weakness in the other player's bet, but they need that information (size of the river bet etc) to be able to get a read.

perhaps the most telling argument is that i can't remember the last time i check-raised/river with a strong hand, but i c/r river bluffed earlier tonight. no doubt it's a good move when pulled off, but i'd venture to guess that the majority are bluffs.

Miffed22001

06-18-2006, 03:53 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

nice example
You raise with AKs button calls.
Flop Kxx no soots no draw. You check opp checks behind (even you check here behind in position). You check turn in hope of inducing a bet. Opp bets you call.
How often will an aggro player bet here if he has a king or puts us on nothing that we can call a river bet with?
I use check raises against bad players who wont understand a passive play by me or against those who i know will keep betting until i show some strength. Kxx flops are a good example because people are less inclined to pt you on Kx/AK a lot.
In the example above id c/r the river to see if opp will call. I guess you can add the idea that how often will aggro opp think your full of it on this hand and call the c/r to look u up?
We dont necesairly want a call after all if we bluff here with AQ or QQ/JJ for example if we are beat and are setting opp up for a play later or just want to buy the pot.

zook

06-20-2006, 12:13 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Theres essentially five ranges of hands he has:

1. Hands he'll call a reasonable river bet with. (Fairly Wide)

2. Hands he'll fold to any reasonable bet with. (Wide)

3. Hands he'll raise with if bet into. (Narrow)

4. Hands he'll bet with if checked to. (Wide)

5. Hands he'll bet and call a check raise with. (Narrow)

Wouldn't you say ranges 3 and 5 would be negligibly different? I think theres few hands that villain would call a check-raise with that he wouldn't just raise if bet into.

I agree with this. Hand #1 is one of those few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

So basically, it seems like you should only check-raise the river when you put him on one of those (few) hands that he'd call a checkraise with, but wouldn't raise with if bet into, such as a made str8 on a flush board when we have the flush or something of that nature.

There's another reason (the main reason, imo) which is to get bets out of hands that would fold to a reasonable bet. It seems like a rare bonus if you get a hand like #1.

I'm starting to think the river c/r can be a good play against aggressive opponents. They'll often bet a marginal hand on the river and get frustrated enough (or feel pot-committed enough) to call the c/r.

Renton

06-20-2006, 12:42 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

There's another reason (the main reason, imo) which is to get bets out of hands that would fold to a reasonable bet.

You don't check/raise in this case. You check/call. There's never any reason to raise if you don't think he'll call with hands you beat.

zook

06-20-2006, 01:09 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

There's another reason (the main reason, imo) which is to get bets out of hands that would fold to a reasonable bet.

You don't check/raise in this case. You check/call. There's never any reason to raise if you don't think he'll call with hands you beat.

Sure there are: 1) to avoid showing down your hand ,and 2) with the nuts, because even a miniscule chance he'll call with a worse hand makes it profitable.

Also, I meant that he would fold to a reasonable bet if you lead, not a reasonable bet if you c/r'ed if that makes any difference. Not that there are many hands that would fold if you lead the river but call a c/r. But I can imagine a few, if you give really good pot odds with your c/r.

RiverMonkey

06-20-2006, 08:36 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

In NLTP (pg. 149) Sklansky spells out three heads-up river situations where you should give strong consideration to going for a check raise:

[1] Your opponent will bet a wider range of hands then he will call with

[2] You have a great hand and you think your opponent will bet and call a check raise, but won't raise if you bet or call an original bet that is approx. the sum of the bet and check-raise

[3] You think a check-raise bluff is EV+'ve

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