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Ring Games and KK

  
 
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Setzy
Old 02-21-2007, 06:16 PM     Post subject: Ring Games and KK #1 (permalink)  
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For those who browse FTR regularly, we've all seen the eventual "x does this and y does that", leading up to the eventual question: should I lay down my KK? There's probably an average of one new thread per week with a rough title of "Fold KK Preflop?"

I, like everybody else, have seen KK vs AA plenty. Sometimes the KK sucks out, sometimes the AA holds up. Some dismiss it as "something that happens" and decide they will "pay off" that AA. But....

As primarily a Ring game player, I am wondering what the percentage of the time players have AA when there is a 4-bet preflop in a full Ring game. Sure, 3-betting can be a much larger range, but when you have KK and there is a 4-bet, how often do you see AA? I am not even sure if there is a way to check this...so this is a hypothetical sort of post, but I do believe it is an extremely high number.

The reason I bolded Ring is because I understand that 6-max is a different animal, and there are often circumstances which makes 4-betting much more common than in Ring. For Ring players out there, what's your take?
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bigspenda73
Old 02-21-2007, 09:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Let's look at a $100NL pot. Assume $100 effective stacks. I am going to asssume that a 3bet at this level typically means JJ+,AQs+, AKo therefore making a 4bet with QQ/AKs relatively probable.

Your in CO with KK. Two players limp and MP2(20/5)makes it $5 total. (pot~$8.50). You make it $18 to go in the CO (pot~26.50). All folds get it back around to MP2 who pushes (pot~121.50). Now, what odds are we laying to call?

Looks like about 3:2. We need to call ~80 to win ~120. 3:2.

We are 1:4 against AA (3 possibilities)
We are 1:1 against KK (1 possibility)
We are 4:1 against QQ (3 possiilities)
We are 2:1 against AKs (2 possiblities)

However, the action makes us discount the QQ/AK. Let's discount them 50%. Therefore, there are 6.5 possible holdings.

This is how I would equate this (3/6.5*2.)+(1/6.5*.5)+(1.5/6.5*.8)+(1/6.5*.667)=.348 or ~35%

I believe we are 35% against his discounted range. This is the worst we should ever be in this spot. So, it's a tough spot, tougher than I generally make it out to be.

Fuck it, I'm still calling.
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Da GOAT
Old 02-21-2007, 11:09 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Fuck it, I'm still calling.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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Kauf Jr.
Old 02-22-2007, 11:02 AM #4 (permalink)  
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I can only really speak for the ongame network as that is were I've primarily played. At ongame a 4-bet is 98% AA, the other 2% is crazy monkeyass tilt.
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koolmoe
Old 02-22-2007, 04:23 PM #5 (permalink)  
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People should spend more time worrying about how to play positional poker and less time worrying about hands that come up infrequently.

Getting it all-in preflop every time with KK vs. AA with 100 BB stacks cannot possibly impact your win rate very much. Folding KK to every 4-bet could potentially be a much bigger mistake.

There is no angle anywhere that anyone has ever taken to make this an interesting discussion.

So, push and move on to the next hand.
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Miffed22001
Old 02-22-2007, 04:56 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 in games less than 400nl folding Kk preflop with 100bbs stacks is wrong, unless the circumstances are exceptional.
Ive seen about 2 spots on ftr where id fod kk preflop, otherwise i wouldnt. Ive done it once fwiw, and i doubt ill do it again for a long time.
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