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nUFamn
Old 07-23-2007, 08:03 PM     Post subject: Right Moves? #1 (permalink)  
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nUFamn
Live Cash Game, $10 buy-in, 7-handed... about $90 on the whole table.

This hand involved three players.

Hero UTG (Kd 4d) - calls $.20 big blind.
Seat 4 calls $.20.
Seat 5 raises $1 total.
Seats 6, 7 fold.
Sb folds.
Bb calls $1.
Hero calls $1.
Seat 4 calls $1.
Pot-> $4.
4 players to the flop: 8d, 3d, 6h.
Bb checks.
Hero bets $2.
Seat 4 raises all-in, $19.
Seat 5 slowly calls, $21 total.
Hero folds.
Seat 4 shows Ac 8c.
Seat 5 shows Ah As.
Final board: 8d 3d 6h 9s 10d.

Seat 5 wins ~$60 pot.
Should I have called here? I feel like I made the right move by folding, but as always am frustrated that I missed tripling up. I only had about $15 total, so I would've of course been all-in.

I just figured one of them had an overpair. Had Seat 5 not called, I would have... Seat 4 is hyper-aggressive, pushing all-in almost whenever he senses weakness. I knew he'd get busted.

Seat 5 is a very collected player, I respect him.

I would've gotten around 2.5-1 on my money had I made the call, but I knew I was drawing against at least 1 made hand.
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Lithium
Old 07-23-2007, 08:41 PM #2 (permalink)  

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 79
Lithium
When action got back to you on the flop, a call would have given you 2-1 + $1 on your money (assuming you started with a $15 stack). You had a little better than 2-1 to hit the flush.

It wasn't the nut, however, and you could have lost even had it hit (assuming someone is on the suited A). If it was the nut flush, I would make the call. With the K high draw, I probably lay it down.

Just my $.02
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Chopper
Old 07-23-2007, 09:04 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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Chopper
if seat 5 is a "collected player," whom you respect...you should never call his raise w/ K4. i know it was sooooted, but c'mon. thats a loose call, at any table, imo. and you didnt even have position on them.

as it were, you have no implied odds because of the push...so you cant use those. your only hope, if your read was correct (overpair) was the flush and maybe another out or two for the K, but your kicker sucks, so you cant be confident in that.

but, the other caller DOES change things...a little. you now are getting 2:1 (not 2.5:1 because of you being covered. the most you can win is $45...of which $15 was yours..any more in the middle means nothing to you, only them). so, say you have 9 outs (flush) and another 1 (K, which in reality you didnt because of the AA)...thats 10 total...the money went in on the flop, so, 10 X 4 (roughly) gives you a 40% (prolly closer to 44%), to hit. you need 2.5:1 to call, so, its marginal...but technically, not enough...you need another caller. i dont risk my stack here. but, i'm also not in the pot preflop, either.

sure, it would have hit...but if i had the rake for everytime i "would have hit..." well, you know the rest.

lesson here, imo: K4s UTG sucks, even at a loose table...but especially, TO A RAISER that you have respect for.

fold it, and laugh when the 3 diamond hits the river.

dont get me wrong, KXs may be a money maker at this table...but in late position, and not to a solid raiser.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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2_Thumbs_Up
Old 07-24-2007, 02:01 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
the money went in on the flop, so, 10 X 4 (roughly) gives you a 40% (prolly closer to 44%), to hit. you need 2.5:1 to call, so, its marginal...but technically, not enough...
He only needs 1.5:1 to call and his pot odds are in fact 2.5:1 (you missed the dead money). That's more than enough to call, not even marginal. I say fold PF (I wouldn't even limp in the first place), as played call the flop.
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Chopper
Old 07-24-2007, 03:51 AM #5 (permalink)  
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wheres the dead money?

pf there were 4 players for a buck each. and the flop bet of $2, and the push overs folded them out. there is only $2 of dead money in the pot that i see. if wrong, please let me know where...i just dont see it.

unless, you mean the money by which hero is covered. and that doesnt calculate into his odds. the money is in. and he only gets $15 of it total. the pot may be over $45, but thats all hero is entitled to...therefore, the overage does not factor into odds calculations for hero.

and where do you get enough outs for a 1.5:1 pot odds calculation? to get that low, you need like 15+ outs. where does he have that many?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Lithium
Old 07-24-2007, 03:58 AM #6 (permalink)  

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Lithium
The money hero can win if he gets it all in is $45+$1(BB preflop bet)-whatever the rake is. Close enough to 2-1 to call it that.

He also has a few runner-runner possibilities.
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nUFamn
Old 07-24-2007, 05:59 AM #7 (permalink)  
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nUFamn
First off, thanks for all the responses guys... I really appreciate the input.

Secondly, the money in the middle was already there, to clarify: I had about $15 in my stack when I folded. So, I would've tripled up my $15, plus another 5 or 6 bucks already in the pot. Sorry if that was unclear!

And I suppose that when I really look at this player, the term "collected" might be able to be interpreted as "tight" but he's really a LAG/TAG hybrid. He bets $.75 (nearly 4x the big blind) about 60% of the hands he plays, so a raise to $1 isn't too far of a stretch. I'm used to playing with him, and it is just part of the game when dealing with him. Realizing the K-4s is a bit sub-par of a hand, I still decided to call because well, it's hard to explain, but a $1 from him doesn't really scare me off pre-flop unless I've got absolute garbage. Post-flop, however, when he makes a move it generally means he's got *something*, and him calling an all-in is definitely noteworthy.

Also, 0 rake as it was a home game.

Anyways, I've had a bit too much to drink for the evening and I need to go take a shower and convince myself to not log onto Ultimate Bet... I don't make the best decisions when I'm wasted. Thanks again everyone.
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2_Thumbs_Up
Old 07-24-2007, 11:03 AM #8 (permalink)  
Flush

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
wheres the dead money?

pf there were 4 players for a buck each. and the flop bet of $2, and the push overs folded them out. there is only $2 of dead money in the pot that i see. if wrong, please let me know where...i just dont see it.

unless, you mean the money by which hero is covered. and that doesnt calculate into his odds. the money is in. and he only gets $15 of it total. the pot may be over $45, but thats all hero is entitled to...therefore, the overage does not factor into odds calculations for hero.
Hero is entitled to 18 bucks from both opponents. He put in 1 dollar PF, 2 dollars on the flop and then folded for 15 more. So hero can win: Villain 1's money + Villain 2's money + the money hero already put in + 1 dollar from fourth caller preflop = 18+18+3+1=40. His pot odds are 40:15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
and where do you get enough outs for a 1.5:1 pot odds calculation? to get that low, you need like 15+ outs. where does he have that many?
15 outs would be more like 1:1 (hero would actually be a slight favourite). You said hero was about 40% to win. 60:40 = 1.5:1
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dave5813
Old 08-17-2007, 06:04 AM #9 (permalink)  

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dave5813
you should of called in this position.

Think about it... You will hit your flush 1 / 3 times. So if you have 2 callers plus your money right there you are breaking even. Now add on the dead money in there... 4 dollars in blinds and your 2 dollar bet (which is still considered dead money as of now) Now you are actually +EV. Chances of someone else holding A high diamond draw is slim. and doesn't even factor in to how much profit in the long run you will end up winning by calling.
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