|
Warpe
|
04-20-2006, 04:49 PM
Post subject: Reraising p/f with KK/AA...
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
...is it worth it? Or does it allow opp's put you on a hand too easily? I think I'm losing value doing this.
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
gabe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
|
|
its more to fun to reraise lots of hands besides AA or KK, that way they dont know when you have the monster.
i sometimes smoothcall preflop against fools.
|
|
|
|
sejje
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
|
|
It depends. Heh, doesn't everything?
I almost always put in a reraise, especially if I'm EP or there's been a couple callers. The original raiser calls ALL THE TIME, and then folds the flop, it's pretty sweet.
Of course, sometimes he hits TPTK and donks off a stack.
Just make sure you put in a big enough raise, and as mentioned, you can do it with more hands. People give reraises tons of respect, it's easy to pick up a pot off of a non AA/KK/QQ hand. They're not going to call you down with 4,4 like they do when they think you missed AK.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Yeah...I guess if I'm not reraising enough with other hands, it makes me pretty easy to read. What ranges are you guys reraising with? I'm trying to LAGG up my game a bit.
|
|
|
|
martindcx1e
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Yeah...I guess if I'm not reraising enough with other hands, it makes me pretty easy to read. What ranges are you guys reraising with? I'm trying to LAGG up my game a bit.
|
Yes, I am also interested in what kind of spots good players decide to re-raise w/o the usual re-reraising hands.
|
|
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
|
|
gabe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
|
|
depends on opponent....
i reraise with not so great hands when there is alot of dead money in the pot (like LAG open raises in MP, CO and button both call, i make it 15bbish). i also reraise when i'm in position against someone who i think is aggressive and thinking player. against minraisers i like to reraise alot with a wider range too.
|
|
|
|
Rondavu
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
|
|
Reraise weak raisers in position with 2 cards. Tear down the beefy pot when they miss with Q8 suited.
|
|
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
reraise
AQ teh nuts remember?!
|
|
|
|
gabe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Reraise weak raisers in position with 2 cards. Tear down the beefy pot when they miss with Q8 suited.
|
bingo bango bongo
|
|
|
|
bigboy5540
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
|
|
i love like to reraise a big pot with AK and AKs. Sometimes i reraise a big pot with 99+, if i feel like lagging it up a little.
|
|
im good at poker
|
|
bigboy5540
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
|
|
other than these hands, it may be a little too risky because you might be doing it too much in a full ring game, unless you are very skilled. I am not yet able to play lag as well as true lag players so for me it is too risky. AQs is another good hand to do it with. Be ready to bluff hard if you miss though, on more than one street most likely.
|
|
im good at poker
|
|
Jay67s
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 241
|
|
I am glad this topic came up --- I had a guy lay down QQ to my KK when the flop came J high. He said my reraise preflop meant AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and with that flop he was beating none of them. I will never call a bet with AA, KK preflop --- firm believer in getting the money in when your ahead. Glad to see some discussion about this topic. I totally agree about reraising bad players. How about a person with a 20% pfr? Reraise them more also?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Increase your r/r range to include AK, sometimes AQ, KK, AA, and sometimes 99-QQ, and occasionally 78s-TJs.
|
|
|
|
Jay67s
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 241
|
|
we probably were not at the table long enough together for him to put "me" specifically on a reraise range. I just think most people when they get reraised think "he has a big pair (AA or KK maybe QQ)" .
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay67s
I am glad this topic came up --- I had a guy lay down QQ to my KK when the flop came J high. He said my reraise preflop meant AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and with that flop he was beating none of them. I will never call a bet with AA, KK preflop --- firm believer in getting the money in when your ahead. Glad to see some discussion about this topic. I totally agree about reraising bad players. How about a person with a 20% pfr? Reraise them more also?
|
That's a good example of what I'm talking about. Against an unknown, that's the read I'm going to make and, I assume, a reasonably aware player would make on me. You likely have to have some history with a player to know that his rr range is wider than that. So, this brings up the question in my mind, are you likely farther ahead valuewise to not rr with these holdings against an unknown with half a clue?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jay67s
we probably were not at the table long enough together for him to put "me" specifically on a reraise range. I just think most people when they get reraised think "he has a big pair (AA or KK maybe QQ)" .
|
I generally play 2 hour sessions, and I reraise pf frequently enough for a player to put me on a wide range. Avg. fish doesn't put me on a specific range of hands or anything, but he knows enough to know that when ever I reraise it doesn't necessarily mean I have AA/KK.
|
|
|
|
r8ed
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
|
|
I only smooth-call when I knows it's going to be heads up. You don't want to trap two or more people especially with KK.
|
|
|
|
Ebene
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
|
|
I hate reraising w/ AKo or AKs. If they push, if they are even slightly short stacked, and if QQ and JJ are possibly in their pushing range then I'm forced with a really tough decision due to pot odds because they are twice as likely to have QQ or JJ as they are to have either KK or AA given that I have AK. If they are donkish enough to possibly have AQ, AJ, or KQ in their range then this gets even worse. And regardless of what happens I rarely have the best of it so its variance unfriendly. I also lose out if they have AQ or AJ and an A was destined to fall on the flop.
I do feel like I need to open up my range though - QQ through 99 seem like much better reraising hands because now I want to run out AQ and AJ, and it will save me a lot of money if they do have KK through AA and come over the top of me (if I was destined to have an overpair on the flop).
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ebene
I hate reraising w/ AKo or AKs. If they push, if they are even slightly short stacked, and if QQ and JJ are possibly in their pushing range then I'm forced with a really tough decision due to pot odds because they are twice as likely to have QQ or JJ as they are to have either KK or AA given that I have AK. If they are donkish enough to possibly have AQ, AJ, or KQ in their range then this gets even worse.
|
How is getting it all in preflop with the best of it bad? If there is enough dead money and villain's stack is short enough, even AKvsKK can show a profit. If you pass on edges like this you are missing out on a lot of potential profit.
I reraise with AK a lot, especially if I am on the blinds and wouldn't like to see a flop. I don't reraise AK in position against a tight player though. Not because I am afraid of AA/KK, but because of the chance he has a dominated ace, at which point he can see a flop out of position and hopefully flop an ace.
|
|
|
|
Ebene
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
|
|
There will very rarely be enough dead money for AKvsKK to show a profit, and even when there is, you don't have the best of it, villain does.
But reraising w/ AK from the blinds against a raise from a steal position - yeah I'm with you there, though if the villain's steal % is low, I'm still calling and going into tight passive mode if an Ace flops.
|
|
|
|
piratepeaty
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigboy5540
i love like to reraise a big pot with AK and AKs. Sometimes i reraise a big pot with 99+, if i feel like lagging it up a little.
|
Sometimes I push with AK, but it is all situational. It's all about timing.
For example, 100NL, one guy raises $7 UTG (has $37 behind) and gets one caller in middle position ($50 behind). I have AK on the button.
I know I am about 50:50 at the worst with anything other than AA, or KK. I know UTG doesn't have AA/KK because I've played with him enough to know the best hand he could have is QQ . MP is a retard, and probably has some low pkt pair or SC. Therefore, my best play is to push. So I push.
UTG folds quickly. MP thinks for a long time and calls with K10 suited. I rake in a handsome pot.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ebene
There will very rarely be enough dead money for AKvsKK to show a profit, and even when there is, you don't have the best of it, villain does.
But reraising w/ AK from the blinds against a raise from a steal position - yeah I'm with you there, though if the villain's steal % is low, I'm still calling and going into tight passive mode if an Ace flops.
|
I think you are playing AK weakly. You are only worried about 2 hands when you have AK. With dead money, AK turns a profit against any other hand. When you factor the lower Ace domination factor and the AA/KK scare factor for your opponents (whether you hit the flop or not), reraising with AK becomes a very profitable play IMO. BTW, if a shorty pushes all in and you don't have him pegged as a camper, the right move with AK is to call (or reraise to isolate), every time, even if you are sure its a coinflip.
If you aren't reraising preflop with unpaired cards, you aren't going to get very much action from aware players (except for from hands you don't want action from, like 88). AK, in the 16 ways it is dealt, adds significant amount to your reraising range. e.g. if you only reraised with AA and KK, but then decided to add AK to your reraising range, you'd literally be more than doubling your reraising range since you get dealt AK more than AA and KK combined.
|
|
|
|
Ebene
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 42
|
|
I'm underplaying it on purpose in these situations because I want the PFR to think he's ahead and spend 2 streets betting at me before he figures out he isn't. I think this is a lot more profitable than throwing in a raise that will only get called by better hands. But then again, I'm not in love w/ AK; I definitely don't think its the 3rd best hand in hold'em. I'm behind to any pocket pair and good players can take advantage of this, and I generally only expect to get called by pocket pairs. If I know someone has AK in their reraising range, I'm more than happy to call with a pocket pair and c/r the flop and/or float and take the pot on the turn if they didn't hit, because around than half the time they'll have AK rather than an overpair. The only times I really expect to win a big pot with it is when I have someone dominated and they don't know it, but if I reraise I run out all of those hands.
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
I'm underplaying it on purpose in these situations because I want the PFR to think he's ahead and spend 2 streets betting at me before he figures out he isn't.
|
"Value calling" with AK against AQ on an Axx board doesn't happen often enough to make underplaying AK profitable IMO.
Quote:
|
I think this is a lot more profitable than throwing in a raise that will only get called by better hands.
|
I don't think this is true at all, particularly in a loose game. There are only two better hands than AK.
Quote:
|
But then again, I'm not in love w/ AK; I definitely don't think its the 3rd best hand in hold'em. I'm behind to any pocket pair and good players can take advantage of this, and I generally only expect to get called by pocket pairs.
|
Sure, pocket pairs are ahead of AK. However, they are not even nearly as playable and versatile. With proper postflop aggression and prudent laydown ability, a player with AK can grind out a good profit against a player with 99-QQ. If someone raises with QQ and gets reraised (from a player with a large perceived reraising range like me) by my AK, and the flop is Kxx, against most players I will be able to extract a bet or two out of him on the flop and turn. Sure, on an A high flop it becomes a little easier to lay queens down, but even then a flop bet will often get paid off.
I think you are getting a bit hung up on the fact that pocket pairs are a slight favorite over AK. This is such a trivial detail IMO because with any amount of dead money, 47/53 is a profitable proposition. Combine that with the additional postflop playability of AK compared to medium pairs, and the money's in AK's favor.
|
|
|
|
bigboy5540
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
|
|
i actually agree with renton here. see the point you are missing ebene when you say "if they push you are in a bad situation" and you would rather not be in that situation is: if they push you are most likely in a bad situation regardless of your reraise or not. Most people wouldnt push with anything less than KK preflop to a re raise. You can fold with ease. If they do push with hands like JJ they are donks and you should be able to identify them and call their pushes anyway. You are only ever so slughtly behind. Against a sloid player, he will put you on KK or AA and he will only call ur re raise with most hands in this situation. Then after the flop whether you hit or not, you will probably be able to take the pot away from the solid player. If they have a hand like JJ or 1010, you gain the upper hand and ability to push them off the hand after the flop with your preflop re raise. AK is the third best hand in poker because of this versatility and it should be played like it is the third best hand in poker. It will pay off in the long run.
|
|
im good at poker
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigboy5540
Then after the flop whether you hit or not, you will probably be able to take the pot away from the solid player. If they have a hand like JJ or 1010, you gain the upper hand and ability to push them off the hand after the flop with your preflop re raise.
|
Bingo. This is also a great play to use with any two cards (I prefer a decent hand like 77 or a suited connector) for when a loose raiser gets out of line preflop (assuming they are a GOOD loose raiser).
|
|
|
|
underminedsk
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Reraising you from the button
Posts: 250
|
|
my reraising range includes AK and AKs if the inital raise is <5x. (sometimes there are exceptions to this, if I think the inital raiser is weak postflop, or I think there is a good chance he is raisng a hand that I dominate)
my rr range for over 5x inital raises include AA, KK, and 45s-TJs and QQ situationally.
However, on a different note, my favorite line with AA is to sometimes call a 5x opener, or call a reraise if someone raises over my 5x opener. (I only do this if its guarenteed to go HU to the flop). Then I have various strategies to get the villan to stack off to me with TPTK or a lower overpair, which usually involves making a disproportionately large bet or raise on the flop. Sometimes I even just open push. I'm finding this works pretty well, where someone who might have mucked AK, AQ, or KK-JJ to a reraise gets aggressive postflop or cannot lay it down.
|
|
online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
