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Reading a loose aggressive player

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KewlKatt

07-28-2004, 03:01 PM Post subject: Reading a loose aggressive player

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 90

Sitting at a table this morning playing a tight and aggressive game on stars and this one fella joins and I notice he imediately gets into the action and betting. First three hands after joining he is into the flops telling me he is a loose player. First hand I get into it with him he shows his aggressive tendencies.

PokerStars Game #574617827: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/07/28 - 08:02:39 (ET)
Table 'Venusia' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: kirindaged ($38 in chips)
Seat 2: MISSIN ($12.85 in chips)
Seat 3: thakilla ($40 in chips)
Seat 5: CallItCorby ($106.40 in chips)
Seat 6: KewlKatt ($43.30 in chips)
Seat 8: captaindex ($63.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Slymtl ($30.10 in chips)
kirindaged: posts small blind $0.50
MISSIN: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KewlKatt [Ac Kd]
thakilla: folds
CallItCorby: folds
KewlKatt: raises $1 to $2
captaindex: folds
Slymtl: folds
kirindaged: calls $1.50
MISSIN: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js Td 7s]
kirindaged: checks
KewlKatt: checks
*** TURN *** [Js Td 7s] [3c]
rabiddawg joins the table at seat #4
kirindaged: bets $4
KewlKatt: folds
kirindaged collected $4.75 from pot
kirindaged: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5 | Rake $0.25
Board [Js Td 7s 3c]
Seat 1: kirindaged (small blind) collected ($4.75)
Seat 2: MISSIN (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: thakilla folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: CallItCorby folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: KewlKatt folded on the Turn
Seat 8: captaindex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Slymtl (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Obviously bluffing, but still to early to execute a play on him even though I was probably still ahead at the turn.

Few hands later, again he is betting into me

PokerStars Game #574619491: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/07/28 - 08:06:12 (ET)
Table 'Venusia' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: kirindaged ($31.75 in chips)
Seat 2: MISSIN ($40.45 in chips)
Seat 3: thakilla ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 4: rabiddawg ($43.15 in chips)
Seat 5: CallItCorby ($106.40 in chips)
Seat 6: KewlKatt ($41.30 in chips)
Seat 8: captaindex ($63.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Slymtl ($40 in chips)
rabiddawg: posts small blind $0.50
CallItCorby: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KewlKatt [Qh Kd]
KewlKatt: calls $1
captaindex: folds
Slymtl: folds
kirindaged: calls $1
MISSIN: calls $1
thakilla: folds
rabiddawg: folds
CallItCorby: checks
*** FLOP *** [9c Ks Ah]
CallItCorby: checks
KewlKatt: checks
kirindaged: bets $3
MISSIN: folds
CallItCorby: folds
KewlKatt: folds
kirindaged collected $4.30 from pot
kirindaged: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.50 | Rake $0.20
Board [9c Ks Ah]
Seat 1: kirindaged collected ($4.30)
Seat 2: MISSIN folded on the Flop
Seat 3: thakilla (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: rabiddawg (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: CallItCorby (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: KewlKatt folded on the Flop
Seat 8: captaindex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Slymtl folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Let this one go because I was out of position, and Kirin has yet to do a preflop raise since he sat down, seems like he likes to play the flop instead, so I let him take it down again.

Very next hand Kirin is at it again,

PokerStars Game #574619994: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/07/28 - 08:07:16 (ET)
Table 'Venusia' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: kirindaged ($35.05 in chips)
Seat 2: MISSIN ($39.45 in chips)
Seat 3: thakilla ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 4: rabiddawg ($42.65 in chips)
Seat 5: CallItCorby ($105.40 in chips)
Seat 6: KewlKatt ($40.30 in chips)
Seat 8: captaindex ($63.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Slymtl ($40 in chips)
CallItCorby: posts small blind $0.50
KewlKatt: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KewlKatt [Jc 9c]
captaindex: folds
Slymtl: folds
kirindaged: calls $1
MISSIN: calls $1
thakilla: folds
rabiddawg: folds
CallItCorby: folds
KewlKatt: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jd 3d 8h]
KewlKatt: checks
kirindaged: bets $2
MISSIN: calls $2
KewlKatt: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Jd 3d 8h] [7d]
KewlKatt: checks
MDES joins the table at seat #7
kirindaged: bets $2
MISSIN: folds
KewlKatt: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [Jd 3d 8h 7d] [8d]
KewlKatt: checks
kirindaged: bets $3
KewlKatt: calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kirindaged: shows [Kh 3h] (two pair, Eights and Threes)
KewlKatt: shows [Jc 9c] (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
KewlKatt collected $18.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $19.50 | Rake $0.90
Board [Jd 3d 8h 7d 8d]
Seat 1: kirindaged showed [Kh 3h] and lost with two pair, Eights and Threes
Seat 2: MISSIN folded on the Turn
Seat 3: thakilla folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: rabiddawg (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: CallItCorby (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: KewlKatt (big blind) showed [Jc 9c] and won ($18.60) with two pair, Jacks and Eights
Seat 8: captaindex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Slymtl folded before Flop (didn't bet)

This time I had top pair and a gut shot I figured I would get a look at what he's betting with since no one up to this point has had a showdown with him. Sure enough, he was over playing his bottom pair.

Now if I can only get a solid hand on him... very next hand

I get a strong draw hand. This time he was betting heavier than before, so I put him on at min Top pair, But having a flush draw and a gut shot I decided on the flop I would take him to the river, sure enough, land my gut shot, and took every chip in front of the lad...

PokerStars Game #574620667: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/07/28 - 08:08:40 (ET)
Table 'Venusia' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 3: thakilla ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 4: rabiddawg ($42.65 in chips)
Seat 1: kirindaged ($27.05 in chips)
Seat 2: MISSIN ($36.45 in chips)
Seat 5: CallItCorby ($104.90 in chips)
Seat 6: KewlKatt ($50.90 in chips)
Seat 7: MDES ($100 in chips)
Seat 8: captaindex ($63.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Slymtl ($40 in chips)
KewlKatt: posts small blind $0.50
MDES: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KewlKatt [Ad 2d]
captaindex: folds
Slymtl: raises $1 to $2
kirindaged: calls $2
MISSIN: folds
thakilla: folds
rabiddawg: folds
CallItCorby: folds
KewlKatt: calls $1.50
MDES: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [7d 5c 4d]
KewlKatt: checks
MDES: checks
Slymtl: bets $2
kirindaged: raises $8 to $10
KewlKatt: calls $10
MDES: folds
Slymtl: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 5c 4d] [5s]
KewlKatt: checks
kirindaged: bets $9
KewlKatt: calls $9
*** RIVER *** [7d 5c 4d 5s] [3c]
KewlKatt: checks
kirindaged: bets $6.05 and is all-in
KewlKatt: calls $6.05
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kirindaged: shows [7h Ah] (two pair, Sevens and Fives)
KewlKatt: shows [Ad 2d] (a straight, Ace to Five)
KewlKatt collected $57.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $60.10 | Rake $2.85
Board [7d 5c 4d 5s 3c]
Seat 3: thakilla folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: rabiddawg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 1: kirindaged showed [7h Ah] and lost with two pair, Sevens and Fives
Seat 2: MISSIN folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: CallItCorby (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: KewlKatt (small blind) showed [Ad 2d] and won ($57.25) with a straight, Ace to Five
Seat 7: MDES (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: captaindex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Slymtl folded on the Flop

Granted that last hand could have gone the other way just as easy, I figured even if I lost the hand on the river, I'd still get the guy by the time I had to leave for work.

KK

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Fnord

07-28-2004, 04:00 PM Post subject: Re: Reading a loose aggressive player

#2 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Sitting at a table this morning playing a tight and aggressive game on stars

You look pretty loose/passive to me.

Hand 1) AK from EP, min-raise, then no bet on the flop.
Hand 2) Limping with KQo from UTG.
Hand 3) Check + call with top pair and later a gutshot
Hand 4) Calling an early position min-raise with A2s, then check + call on a flush draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

07-28-2004, 04:42 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Somewhere there is a guy telling a bad beat story about getting sucked out on by a gutshot wheel straight...

KewlKatt

07-28-2004, 05:10 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 90

Quote:

You look pretty loose/passive to me.

Yes, I changed my gameplay to counter the loose agressive player. I knew he was going in amlost every hand and trying to buy the pot. He was in every hand since he joined.

Mostly everyone seems to agree you need to stick with a style of play in order to play poker profitable, I prefer to adapt to the table, or a particular player in this case. The table before he came was pretty tight and passive for the most part. He came in and started buying pots one after another.

[/quote]

Fnord

07-28-2004, 05:32 PM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

Mostly everyone seems to agree you need to stick with a style of play in order to play poker profitable,

Really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

KewlKatt

07-28-2004, 06:35 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 90

Quote:

By playing like a fish?

I'm not saying I'm anywhere near as skilled player as the Fnord, or most people here for that matter. Just offering an opinion/strategy, if you'd like to offer a better strategy to beat this type of player instead of just being argumentative about it, be my guest. Just because it isn't what you or the books think is "skilled" poker playing doesn't make it a "bad" play. I knew my chances of outdrawing him where good, the implied odds where obviously there as I understand it, I had 16 outs to improve my hand over what I put him on from the flop and had over 2 times his stack.

What made this such a bad play on the guy?

What would have you done to counter this style?

KewlKatt

07-28-2004, 06:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 90

Lol fnord.. I don't mind you calling me a fish, I don't take poker personally, whenever I have I've lost money. You can edit the fish commit back in, I already read it :P

But I would appreciate feedback on a better way to beat this type of player instead of hostility.

Fnord

07-28-2004, 06:46 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

What would have you done to counter this style?

Check/raise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

07-28-2004, 07:03 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

I knew my chances of outdrawing him where good, the implied odds where obviously there as I understand it, I had 16 outs to improve my hand over what I put him on from the flop and had over 2 times his stack.

What made this such a bad play on the guy?

The implied odds were not really there. All but $6 of his stack went in while you were behind. You check-called a pot-sized bet with 13 outs (though it looked like 16) on the flop. The only reason you had odds going to the river was because of the mistake you made on the flop. You never gave him a chance to fold the better hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KewlKatt

What would have you done to counter this style?

The way to counter an overly aggressive player is to get a good hand and let him bet his stack away while you check-raise or check-call. Check-calling without a pat hand is just being a calling station.

The way you played your J9s hand was not so great either. You need to bet out or check-raise to protect your top pair against overcards.

KewlKatt

07-28-2004, 07:44 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 90

Ya, but the pot to me was 20, and the call was 10, I still had pot odds to call the 10 (granted I was slighty under pot odds with him holding the ace as well) on the turn and about the same on the river.

With this type of player + pot odds I'd tend to think I would come out ahead of this situations more than often than not.

As for implied odds, what do you consider implied odds Kool, I was under the impression from FTR article, I had implied odds on this guy as well.

Quote:

This the last factor that is important to consider - implied odds. In the game of no-limit holdem, you potentially could win a much larger pot than the current pot you are calculating your odds against. If you do hit your hand, could you then bet the entire pot amount and assume Player1 will call? How much of a bankroll does Player1 have and is it possible to take it all on this hand? These are interesting questions and also can affect your decision. The total pot size at the very end of the hand, could easily justify making the call in the hopes of winning that pot. This is called "implied odds" and should also be considered.

I know you guys are saying I shouldn't have even played the hand being out of position and a 2xBB PFR, but against this type of player I was looking for a strong flop/draw hand and it was only $1 to me to see the flop. I'm not going to sit there waiting for someone else to clean his pockets when I know I can.

koolmoe

07-28-2004, 08:40 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Implied odds I usually consider as calling a small bet that will lead to several times the amount of the bet when I hit a big hand.

You were calling $10 (without odds) on the flop, and he only had $15 left in his stack. You called $9 (with odds) on the turn, but he only had $6 left in his stack.

If you think you have 16 outs and you know you're going to play it to the river, push after his preflop raise to $10. In addition to your apparent 57% chance to draw to a winning hand, you add folding equity. Once the turn card hit, you are going to lose that hand more than win it, even though you have pot odds to call. It's far better to get your money in with the (apparent) best of it than to wait until you have only a 13/46 chance to win.

The way you played it, you gave yourself a chance to save $6 if your draw didn't hit.

Edit: It's actually 15 or 12 outs since one of the 3's is a diamond, so you didn't have odds (32:15) to see the turn even if you thought the A's were outs. The small implied odds would make it a marginal call if you thought he would bet or call if a third diamond showed on the turn.

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