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littleogre
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08-30-2008, 07:12 PM
Post subject: raising versus shoving with draw?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok i've been wondering about something ok lets say we semi bluff bet a draw on the flop or turn. Lets also say if we raise we will be commited because the stacks are such that even if villan shoves we are geting proper odds to call. In that spot would a shove be better then a raise.
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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I'm confused... if you're semi-bluffing by betting the flop or turn, who are you raising?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Usually yes.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sarbox68
I'm confused... if you're semi-bluffing by betting the flop or turn, who are you raising?
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sorry for the time being just forget the raising part. was thinking about 2 differnt situation when i wrote the post. For now lets assume our choices are bet the standard 3/4 pot or shove. Lets also assume that a bet commites to our draw. I want to know when it is better ev to just shove?
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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If you're committed to semi-bluffing and the semi-bluff commits you, then I don't know why you wouldn't shove to maximize FE. Only thing I can think of is if you flop the draw plus something else (top/middle pair, OCs, combo draw) and, based on reads and outs v. their range, you'd rather get some value out of them on the flop and then cram the turn. But I'm not sure if that's part of your question or not....
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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I'm going to ask a rather dumbed down related question.
If we've got say for mathmatical purposes, 48% equity in a hand, and FE will push it over, that's when we want to shove?
Where-as if we've got say 52%+ equity(a combo draw), we want to bet/raise/reraise as needed? Or is this situation, and sometimes a shove?
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sarbox68
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
Posts: 871
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wellrounded08
I'm going to ask a rather dumbed down related question.
If we've got say for mathmatical purposes, 48% equity in a hand, and FE will push it over, that's when we want to shove?
Where-as if we've got say 52%+ equity(a combo draw), we want to bet/raise/reraise as needed? Or is this situation, and sometimes a shove?
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My frequently wrong 2 cents? If I don't have a made hand (draw only, like the combo draw...) then I prolly still want the benefit of some FE 'cause any betting is still technically a semi-bluff. And if the Tu bricks you completely, your equity is likely to drop -- possible tank against their range.
If I have 52% equity with, say, a top or second pair + a draw, where my made hand is ahead of a chunk of their range by itself, I may not want to fold them out on the flop.
So much of this is SPR dependent. Shoving 80bb into a 12bb pot is IMHO usually a horrible idea, as you'll fold out anything that you beat, lose the oppty to extract value from worst hands, and get called by the sh!t that's likely to cream you. In OPs original question, this semi-bluff pot-commits him anyway, so he's going all-in... It's really just a now or later, and the now maximizes his FE.
If I'm way off here, I'm sure someone else will tell you... 
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wellrounded08
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ...Good Question........Where am I?
Posts: 366
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I see what your saying. 52% is fine, but even better w/ FE.
" "
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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How about betting a different amount that doesnt commit you?
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Just playing to improve.
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loktakwah
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I think in general if your hand doesnt' have much showdown value, then yes shoving is better than raising. You dont' want to let your opponent think he has any fold equity.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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It depends on how much money is in the pot. I generally like to make a big raise of such a size that I'm confortable playing two pair and sets the same way.
When there is a lot of money behind (10+ SPR) you're generally better off flatting and playing poker on later streets.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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ty to all for the helpful replies
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