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drtofu66
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06-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Post subject: Raising TT in unraised pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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General consensus around is seems to be to raise TT in an uraised pot. Open raise-- sure, I get that.
But what are we trying to accomplish raising TT if it's limped multiway and we're in the blinds? Overcards will flop something like 70% of the time and cbetting into a multiway pot OOP is spewish. Is this more of a metagame thing-- getting our PFR% higher with a pretty good hand? Or is TT just barely +EV enough that you want to juice the pot?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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It depends how multiway the pot is. If theres 3-4 limpers you can raise and probably make it HU on the flop then raising is good.
If you are at a table where there are huge numbers of limpers who will call raises with marginal hands then you should be seeing alot more flops but raising with alot fewer hands preflop since you can wait until you make your hand and then make big value bets that will be called by weak hands.
At a table like this I would probably limp TT (maybe even JJ), but also limp alot of suited connectors / suited aces etc.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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Bear in mind that your opponents will think you have a much better hand than you actually do. If you were to raise it to like 8-12xbb you should be able to narrow the field down to 1-2 people (who will all put you on AA/KK/QQ/AK). If someone has limped in with a powerhouse hand they'll let you know by pushing preflop, and you can comfortably fold. Then with 1-2 people it's a lot easier to get everyone to fold with a display of strength off of the flop. How would you feel with (KQ) on a Q84r flop (or a KJxr flop, for that matter) facing a serious preflop raise and a serious bet on the flop? Otherwise, if you just limp you need a set to feel comfortable betting. Even if the flop were all unders you'd still have people possibly hitting two-pair.
FWIW, that's the way I'd play that type of hand in micro-stakes.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I raise TT in a limping pot preflop 95% of the time, regardless of my position on opponents.
Occasionally I will check it in the big blind or limp from the small blind with it.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Save yourself the hassle and push TT preflop.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Save yourself the hassle and push TT preflop.
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rofl
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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jack. No offense dude i really love your perspective and it certainly makes me think but really. Stop making sarcastic threads at least in the beginners circle where someone might take you seriously.
You have had a very promising start to your poker career and im sure you could help alot of the beginners out with your thoughts but sarcasm + beginner circle = confusion.
please start making sensible comments.
I know you have alot to say.
Me
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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limping TT is fine at low stakes IMO, especially in EP.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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i think i'd be more apt to raise TT preflop at lower stakes, since you can stack people with overpairs at 25nl.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by yorib
If you were to raise it to like 8-12xbb you should be able to narrow the field down to 1-2 people
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8-12 Bb would almost certainly rep a powerhouse hand but its quite a bit overboard if you ask nme. Just go for the standard 4x (mayube + 1 per limper) and see what happenes thjere)
If you are really getting called too much preflop (and on the flop) then just forget about making a hand preflop. Provided you are playing people who will call with marginal hands (on the flop too) then you should be seeing plenty of flops and betting shitloads when you hit IMO.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i think i'd be more apt to raise TT preflop at lower stakes, since you can stack people with overpairs at 25nl.
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My reason for not raising is that there's overcards too often which makes TT hard to play against calling stations. I rather just play for set value.
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Thee One
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i think i'd be more apt to raise TT preflop at lower stakes, since you can stack people with overpairs at 25nl.
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My reason for not raising is that there's overcards too often which makes TT hard to play against calling stations. I rather just play for set value. |
Ditto, the same with JJ for me. Major leak for me if I do anything other than call/fold or hit the set.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Thee One
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i think i'd be more apt to raise TT preflop at lower stakes, since you can stack people with overpairs at 25nl.
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My reason for not raising is that there's overcards too often which makes TT hard to play against calling stations. I rather just play for set value. |
Ditto, the same with JJ for me. Major leak for me if I do anything other than call/fold or hit the set. |
surely youll play an overpair? Its very easy to be behind with an overpair and so many limpers but you need to at least be putting out a feeler bet really. You can judge the response from there.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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You are losing massive EV if you only play pocket pairs 77-JJ for set value.
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Thee One
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
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I play an overpair, just carefully. Sort of like TPTK. If I get played back at strongly I'm out. If I read it as a 'do you really have something' raise, I tend to call and try for a cheap showdown.
Mostly I play them according to the flop it or drop it rule. Keeps me out of trouble. The only exception is the aforementioned low board or a very passive table where I try to pick up the pot right there.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i played 22-JJ for set value for a while.
Now i raise 77-JJ from all positions 90% of the time, and 22-66 50%+ of the time.
And I realize how far superior it is.
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i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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Play TT closer to QQ than to 99....IMO
I like to raise it in an unraised pot and rep the flop, and use caution if played back at. Flop comes under me, as a rule I put a bet out and take the pot right there. In a raised pot, I play for set value. But if flop comes under under cards in a raised pot, and I am in EP, I have pulled this move. Lead the flop, and if raised, push, repping a set. It has worked probably 75% of the time. Flop comes overcards, I can let go of it.
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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You are losing massive EV if you only play pocket pairs 77-JJ for set value.
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Thee One
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 185
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
You are losing massive EV if you only play pocket pairs 77-JJ for set value.
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I can agree with you but it depends on my mode. If I'm Laggy at a 6max, I agree. If it's full ring, I'm more cautious playing against the calling stations with less than 2-pair.
I tend not to play poker with those who play cards.
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drtofu66
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greedo017
i played 22-JJ for set value for a while.
Now i raise 77-JJ from all positions 90% of the time, and 22-66 50%+ of the time.
And I realize how far superior it is.
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Doesn't this have to do with the level you're playing at and the table characteristics? I'm pretty sure that you're playing at least 2 or 3 levels above me (I'm at 10/25NL). Once people start wondering what you have (not very common at 25NL; much more common at 100/200NL I'd guess) raising the small/mid PP value comes from loosening your image, taking down the small unimproved pots with c-bets, and getting them to pay you off when you do really have AA or KK, right? Also, raising 22 has fold equity on the flop where you'd get nitty players with unimproved 33-TT to fold and there's an overcard or 2 on the board. I'd guess that this works at the average mixed tables with 20-30% VPIP but starts to fall apart once the VPIP starts drifting north of 40% with more than 3 fish at the table. Now your c-bets with underpairs will get called down by TPWK or 2nd board pair instead of folded but so will your sets, so playing for set value becomes a bigger chunk of your winnings. Wouldn't you agree?
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I just checked my PP stats for the last 19K or so hands. 22-66 I am 40BB/100; 77-99 I am -29BB/100.
Now, I play mid PPs strongly and will pretty much always cont bet and take advantage of their strength as a made hand even when I don't set, but - I've obviously been playing them wrong! That's a bit of a revelation actually.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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06-13-2006, 09:27 PM
Post subject: Re: Raising TT in unraised pot
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#22 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drtofu66
But what are we trying to accomplish raising TT if it's limped multiway and we're in the blinds? Overcards will flop something like 70% of the time and cbetting into a multiway pot OOP is spewish. Is this more of a metagame thing-- getting our PFR% higher with a pretty good hand? Or is TT just barely +EV enough that you want to juice the pot?
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Make it ~6-8 BBs to go then lead out f0r 3/4 pot pretty much regardless of flop as long as you don't have more than 1-2 callers. Think of what you're representing when you do this? Most opponents are going to be as scared of your line as you are of seeing overcards.
What hands do most people limp with but then are willing to call fairly substantial raises with? People commonly do it with small PP which are hands you have dominated.
With multiple people limping in I would expect that my TT was the best hand and play it as such especially since every subsequent limper needs less and less of a hand to make the original call.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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*yawn*
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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raise!
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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I think a lot of players don't like raising JJ/TTish type hands because they are bad post-flop players. ie. they'll lose moderate-big sized pots with an overcard (overcards) on the board, or they'll get stacked on rag boards. They are used to playing with terrible players and waiting for massive edges to push post-flop on a consistent basis. And then they see in pokertracker that their TT is in the green, and they tell everybody "look at my pokertracker stats, I limp TT in all the time, and look how much money I'm making!!!" And I think to myself, wow, geez, what a surprise, arguably the 5th best hand in holdem is making you money??? Imagine if you played well with it! Ok I'm done. fwiw -sometimes- I'll call/check down TT in the blinds under the right circumstances. Even JJ on occasion, but I think that's usually pretty bad.
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Wyvver
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 125
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I have a really hard time understanding why you always have to raise with hands like TT preflop. Dont get me wrong, I do it every time when I play short-handed, or think I can pick up the blinds, but on a full table?
Is it because I play micro limits? Maybe at higher limits you can isolate
someone with TT but it seems at the limits/tables I play, there will be at least 3-4 people looking at the flop and there is a huge chance that at least 1 player catches something that is worth it for him to go all the way to the river no matter what I do.
And that will usually be a higher pair, so unless I make a set, Im done.
Right now on a full table, I limp with any pocket pair < TT and hope for a set (unless like I said, I think there is a chance that I can pick up the blinds, or it is short-handed).
I know it is probably wrong not to raise TT as so many good players advice it, but I feel like I shouldnt make a play until I really believe it is correct 
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- Don't Panic -
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wyvver
, but on a full table?
Is it because I play micro limits? Maybe at higher limits you can isolate
someone with TT but it seems at the limits/tables I play, there will be at least 3-4 people looking at the flop and there is a huge chance that at least 1 player catches something that is worth it for him to go all the way to the river no matter what I do.
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Raising preflop with TT and getting several callers is a great result, and highly +EV.
You are usually getting the money in there with the best of it regardless of what happens after the flop. Plus you are getting great pot odds, on top of the implied odd you get for TTT value.
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Wyvver
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 125
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I think thats what I trouble understanding: What exactly makes TT so strong? I mean appart from flopping a set, with TT in a full game most of the time you will hold MP after the flop.
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- Don't Panic -
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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only 4 pairs and AK have you dominated I think, not even sure of AK seeing as I'm at work and don't have pokerstove here. We are talking about pre flop, No? you have to get your money in when you are ahead and thin out the feild of chasers. Of a full 9 or 10 ring How many have your TT beat preflop.
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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Wyvver: So far I've only played at the "kiddie tables" ($5/$10NL) and raising TT in an unraised pot is a necessity. Especially when there's 4+ limpers to me.
The reasons include (and these are based on my observations at micro-stakes).
1) Chances are very good you have the best hand, and those who limp in with a better hand (JJ+) are either trying to trap (AA/KK) or more scared than you are of overcards (JJ/QQ). You always want to build the pot when you're ahead. (At these stakes, at least).
2) If someone is trying to trap you, or has a better hand they will substantially reraise preflop and then you can play "set or fold" or just fold.
3) You have sent a strong signal to the table that you have something good. (Which you do!).
4) It makes it harder for those who are paying attention to put you on hands. I'd guess that the average player would think (if they thought about your hand) that you have QQ+ or AK.
5) It's an easy (i.e. inexpensive) way to try and up your aggression post-flop. Or, at a minimum, build your post-flop game.
Good luck
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drtofu66
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 595
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
only 4 pairs and AK have you dominated I think, not even sure of AK seeing as I'm at work and don't have pokerstove here. We are talking about pre flop, No? you have to get your money in when you are ahead and thin out the feild of chasers. Of a full 9 or 10 ring How many have your TT beat preflop.
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That's assuming that you're playing people who will know enough to fold/limp-fold KQ, QJ, KJ, AJ, AQ to a raise. If I knew that they wouldn't play those hands to a raise, I'd be glad to raise TT every time. But, you're a coinflip against those hands and AK, and a big dog to JJ+. If there are 3 players at the table willing to play all 10 of these hands to a raise, I'm not sure raising TT in every position is a highly +EV situation (again maybe I'm wrong but that's why I started this thread in the first place). TT vs QJ vs KQ vs AJ-- according to twodimes, our edge is mighty slim here:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Td 355160 32.70 727486 66.99 3362 0.31 0.328
Qs Kd 292897 26.97 783881 72.18 9230 0.85 0.273
Ac Jh 332517 30.62 744074 68.51 9417 0.87 0.310
Qd Jd 90149 8.30 980574 90.29 15285 1.41 0.089
Against 2 players where their outs aren't in the other players' hands, we're actually behind (I'm very surprised by this. So much so that I have to ask: is this right??):
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Tc Td 435209 31.75 931747 67.97 3798 0.28 0.318
Qs Kd 462769 33.76 904187 65.96 3798 0.28 0.339
Ac Jh 468978 34.21 897978 65.51 3798 0.28 0.343
I'm not arguing the point that raising TT is +EV; the winning players here advising that is proof enough that it is. I do think, though, that the winning players here have enough experience to sniff out the best spots to raise TT, the times when playing it for set value is enough, and even more importantly: when to dump it. Plus their TAG playing style (whereas compared to those guys I'm more passive) gets them that fold equity edge that I probably don't have. I just hope I get to that point soon.
EDIT: Good points yorib. Post-flop play is key of course, but we beginners here don't have they spidey-sense to get out of the way of a passively played set and end up betting too much to try and take down the pot when someone has clearly flopped something better than TT.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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I think isolating a single hand like TT makes it look bad to raise, but if you raise good hands all the time and the right amounts they won't be calling, assumingly a higher than buy-in stack that has raised 3xbb pluse 1 for every caller (as the std. preached here) depending on position and table, this could be 5xbb to 8xbb and I've played enough micro to know that only the better hands or the calling stations will stay. It's not just raising to win uncontested, which is ok by the way, but if you get pushed back you know where ya stand with only 5bb or 6BB. If you are consistantly raising and showing down winning hands, the table image makes raising TT a very good play, it scares the fish and also makes it harder for the better players to put you on QQ, KK, AA. Again I don't think your looking to showdown TT as top pair against 3 callers when you raise pre flop, but thats just me. And still, if it's +EV, even slim, is that not the play you make all the time in ring games. And like you said, "knowing when to dump it" is extreamly important, but the same can be said for AA.
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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I love when nits fold to my raises and I can valuebet on flop/turn my overpair/2nd pair against loose fishies.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Vrax
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Quote:
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I think thats what I trouble understanding: What exactly makes TT so strong? I mean appart from flopping a set, with TT in a full game most of the time you will hold MP after the flop.
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Ok, here goes comparison AK/TPTK vs TT/overpair:
TT as overpair has similar strength as AK/TPTK, can stand similar pressure and it's made hand. It has huge payoff potential with 3rd Ten on board - something that AK doesn't have (unless you find some bozo with Ax and Ace flops). TPTK against low set is drawing near dead, pocket pair has 5% shot in both streets. Less chance of being reverse-dominated when we represent broadway card on board, 4-outs redraw against flushes on paired board. Tptk has 2 outs and if it hit any flush will shut down instantly.
Value of TT is better seen in deep stack poker and 5 full streets of betting.
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"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
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Wyvver
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 125
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Well I sat down with Poker Stove for some hours, and it's all much clearer now...should have done that earlier
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- Don't Panic -
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