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raising pre-flop and post flop and calling stations

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bunthorne

04-21-2005, 01:49 PM Post subject: raising pre-flop and post flop and calling stations

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Since playing on the internet, I heve come to conclusion that the traditional basic low limit strategy is not effective. I find that there is little point in raising with a strong hand pre-flop, as many players will call the maximum number of raises and see the flop. Then my AK or AQ suited loses to someone playing 83 off-suit who has made a pair or two pairs. Therefore if I don't raise pre-flop I reduce the effect of the bad beat, but if I am fortunate enough to win, then I win, albeit less than I would like for the hand.

Also, once the flop is out, I find that betting my hand to eliminate those playing draws is not effective, as players with inside straight draws and back door flush draws will often call raises and, lo and behold, hit on the turn and river. Therefore it seems advisable not to raise too much unless I have a hand which is unlikely to be beaten.

Does anyone have any views on this? Normally a "calling station" is the perfect opponent, certainly in live poker, but online they seem to fare much better. If players adopt this approach it turns the game into a bit of a lottery and the best advice is to find another game!

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drmcboy

04-21-2005, 02:14 PM

#2 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,602

find another game! - that being no limit.

bunthorne

04-21-2005, 02:35 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

find another game! - that being no limit.

yes, I prefer no-limit, but online the blinds are so small it is not worth playing

EasyT

04-21-2005, 03:24 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

This post seems a bit, "glass half empty" to me.

That guy is going to hit his inside draw one time in 5 if he pays you to see the river. The guy with the 4-flush is one in three. Raise and make him pay.

You're on a bad streak of cards, obviously. But don't change up your strategy. Betting out your TPTK vs the inside str8 dr is EV+. Don't stop doing it.

I don't play limit, so my opinion here is hazy. You might try No Limit like the others said. But be cautious if you're unfamiliar with the different nuances. You can win/lose a lot more per hand in NL.

lonnie

04-21-2005, 03:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Quote:

I find that there is little point in raising with a strong hand pre-flop, as many players will call the maximum number of raises and see the flop. Then my AK or AQ suited loses to someone playing 83 off-suit who has made a pair or two pairs.

I used to feel this way about AQ, AK, etc. But I kept raising with them. You want these callers of course. Maybe you need to tweak your post flop play so that you are maximizing your wins and minimizing theirs when they hit a big hand. Post some hand histories in the Limit forum. This is a pretty vague post, and we all know that limping AQ and AK is incorrect...so save the rant and tweak your game.

If AQ and AK are losers for you after you have played a lot of hands, you are doing something wrong. You need to figure out what your mistakes are. If you have only played a few hundred hands, it is probably just variance.

bunthorne

04-21-2005, 04:08 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Interesting comments so far. I do enjoy no limit and when playing in a tourney I do raise with AK, AQ of course, and if I am the first to act I will bet on the flop no matter what falls because I am the raiser. I know that this strategy tends not to work in limit, where you can't raise players out of the pot due to the lack of betting options. The problem is that I find there is not enough action in no limit cash games.

I suppose the point I am making is that when playing with several calling stations and/or maniacs, it can be difficult. I am probably a big favourite against any one caller/maniac, but against three or four, their combined strength means I'm a dog!!! One of them will usually hit something! So I shoot off to another game.

I just wondered if anyone had any effective strategies for such tables?

bunthorne

04-21-2005, 04:44 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 147

Post some hand histories in the Limit forum.

Here is a hand history. Now, I know you are going to say it's a bad beat (of course it is) but it is typical of what has been happening. Could I have played it better?

I raised the BB utg with AKs
Players 4, 5, 6, SB and BB all call.
Flop comes K 8 2 rainbow.
SB and BB check.
I check, hoping to check raise.
Player 4 bets, player 5 calls, player 6 and SB fold, BB calls.
I raise.
Players 4, 5 and the BB call.
Turn is a 4.
BB checks.
I check, again hoping to check raise, as I’m pretty sure that Player 4 will bet and I feel strongly that I am winning.
Player 4 bets, player 5 calls, BB calls, I raise.
Players 4, 5 and BB call.
River is a 6.
BB checks.
I bet (as I don’t want everyone to check, and I’ve noted that Player 4 often bets to the river then checks; I know there could be a straight out there but that means someone must have called on the flop with just three to a straight).
Player 4 calls, player 5 folds, the BB raises.
I fold, as I’m now certain that I’m not beating both opponents. I would call just one opponent.
Player 4 calls.
Player 4 shows down 62o, for two pairs; the BB shows down 75o for a straight. Both have better hands than me.
Player 4 had bet with bottom pair on the flop and turn, the BB called with 3 to a straight on the flop and a gutshot on the turn.

I know it sounds like glass half empty, but it is frustrating to lose in this way, although I must accept that most pots are won by weak players playing bad cards poorly. I've seen a number of pros complaining recently about internet players calling them with poor hands and outdrawing them, mind you, so I'm not in bad company!

whileone

04-21-2005, 05:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 306

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunthorne

I know it sounds like glass half empty, but it is frustrating to lose in this way, although I must accept that most pots are won by weak players playing bad cards poorly. I've seen a number of pros complaining recently about internet players calling them with poor hands and outdrawing them, mind you, so I'm not in bad company!

The worse the players the more you win, because you get to push all of your edges.
The worse the players the bigger the swings, because the don't realize they're just gambling. you bet when you were +EV. if the swings are making you crazy, you could try stepping up in stakes(if your BR can support it) but over 50K hands, you should be a big winner. heck, over 10K hands you should have some idea of where you stand.

Noooooooooooooooo!!
--Darth Vader

lonnie

04-21-2005, 07:25 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Playing against loose players is great. You don't win as many of the pots that you play because there are more players in the pot to "catch". The good news is that when you do win a pot, it will be a big one.

The hand you posted is a good example.
Preflop - Raise, good.
Flop - Check/raise - good.
Turn - I don't really like the turn check/raise too much. I would have just bet out here.
River - Don't know what to tell you here. I might have just checked this river to see what developed after me. Might be able to save a bet by watching those behind you raise first. Very seldom is a single pair good on an uncoordianted board with 4 players at the river.

The way I play a loose game typically - bet/raise like crazy preflop and flop. Slow down on the turn, watching for passive players to show strength. At the river with just a pair...try and show that sucker down as cheaply as possible multi-way. Getting fancy on the turn and river in these games can cost you way too many bets. These games are extremely profitable, but you have got to pay attention to the post flop play, or you'll just be another "ACES CRACKED" post at FTR.

I'm check raising straights, boats, flushes, sets on the turn, not pairs...in a loose game.

If you want a little tighter game, try out the Poker Stars .50/1.00 or 1/2 games. Not sure what kind of stakes you are playing at.

Maximimize wins and minimize losses!!

Nugunz

04-23-2005, 04:18 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: BG

Posts: 55

"Any time an opponent is not getting close to proper odds against you, you are rooting for him to call, even if by calling he has a chance of drawing out on you."

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raising pre-flop and post flop and calling stations

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