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Iconoclastic
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12-07-2005, 10:57 PM
Post subject: Raising limpers preflop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 324
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Since I've started $25 NLHE a week ago, I've noticed that selectively raising limpers and blind stealing (RL for short) preflop has been one of my most effective moves. Is it just me or do people really fear preflop raises? I take small pot after small pot after, well you know. My PFR% according to PokerTracker is now 19% because of this tactic. And that does not even include the equity from successful continuation bets.
This move has been so good to me that I even experimented by buying in with the minimum at a table and doing very little other than RL. I went with the minimum buyin rather than the standard buyin because a good player who sees a preflop raise from a short stack is less likely to play back even if he knows I have nothing because of the apparently lower FE. Plus this way they have no implied odds and are less likely to call with something like T9s.
The trick with this move is that it works best with Tight players. I've lost a few bucks messing with the wrong >insert derogatory nickname for Loose players here<. I have even gone so far as to keep Rocks on my Buddy List and avoiding the Loose Passive players that most sharks consider to be fish. Am I the only one who feeds on Rocks?
Let's discuss this strategy. I am curious as to the response from all kinds of players, not only LAGs.
BTW, I see some users have posted hand histories in this Hold'em Strategies section. We have a separate section for that.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Shhhhh.... I like making money too...
A lot of the nits will limp their pairs, then fold without a set figuring they get paid off when they hit. Well, If I'm raising trash they're paying me off. Discuss.
Just about everyone at the NL100 level either defends poorly against the PFR + c-bet or pays off way too much. Few players are raising a wide enough range pre-flop. Fewer still re-raise a wide enough range to make me ever want to call unless I'l doing a set job or otherwise getting crazy good implied pot odds.
BTW: This is stupid easy when you have access to a large hand history database.
BTW2: You've started down the road to the dark side and insane profits. Move up to at least the NL50 level asap.
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azureXsmurF
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 170
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Shhhhh.... I like making money too...
A lot of the nits will limp their pairs, then fold without a set figuring they get paid off when they hit. Well, If I'm raising trash they're paying me off. Discuss.
Just about everyone at the NL100 level either defends poorly against the PFR + c-bet or pays off way too much. Few players are raising a wide enough range pre-flop. Fewer still re-raise a wide enough range to make me ever want to call unless I'l doing a set job or otherwise getting crazy good implied pot odds.
BTW: This is stupid easy when you have access to a large hand history database.
BTW2: You've started down the road to the dark side and insane profits. Move up to at least the NL50 level asap.
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/me become interested in this "dark side"...~_~
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rounder1112
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
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Probably no help here but, in .05/. 10 games of nlhe limping in on low pairs 22-66 reap more return overall then raising 4xbb or Xxbb. I would tend to follow this kind of play more often unless I’m faced with a player that PFR every time or more often (very few grinders or daily players will consider this bluffing all the time) in that case I become tight and wait till I have strong hands (group1) aa kk qq etc. then I take my odds of hitting my hand. You may make .30-.60 cents every time youPFR that way but in the long haul you will be called by a player that can read your pot stealing tell and take you for more than you earned in the last 10 hands. Some players believe that nlhe is a game of 7 cards and going in big all the time on pfb only increases their winnings.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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o All of the loose calls in small stakes game effectivly defend against naked and semi-naked aggression. However, are exploitable in other widely discussed ways.
o In Hold'em no one has much of anything, more often than not
o Being a little aggressive with not much of anything, gets you more action when you have something.
o Target selection is important. Don't blast a big c-bet into a 5-way pot out of position. Don't raise players that give too much action with weak hands.
o Many aggressive players in smaller games can't hit the breaks or put predictable players on hands (laydown.)
o Waiting for QQ+/AK to fight back won't work against selective, thinking aggression. You're often forced to fight back after the aggressor picks the fight.
o Gear shifting good.
I didn't say it was easy. It is however, more profitable.
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Bmxicle
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 947
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Yeah i really like doing this in tourneys, because people are sooo incredibly suspicious of blind steals, but you get one limper and raise on 4x on the button in a tourney and you almost automatically get respect for having a good hand.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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I do this a lot on the button or cutoff with a reasonable hand. Axs, suited connector, any pair, etc., it's a profitable play in position, but not one out of position.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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Fnord what do you mean by this:
"Just about everyone at the NL100 level either defends poorly against the PFR + c-bet or pays off way too much. Few players are raising a wide enough range pre-flop. Fewer still re-raise a wide enough range to make me ever want to call unless I'l doing a set job or otherwise getting crazy good implied pot odds.
BTW: This is stupid easy when you have access to a large hand history database. "
What did you mean by the "This is stupid easy when you have access to a large hand history database."
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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sunfunbunch - Poker Tracker is a hand history DB. If you play the same tables, you will have stats on 1/3 of the players or more right when you sit down.
Iconoclastic - you won't need a buddy list if you play on Empire Poker (at least the last time I was there in Mid-November).
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
I do this a lot on the button or cutoff with a reasonable hand. Axs, suited connector, any pair, etc., it's a profitable play in position, but not one out of position.
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I disagree. From the SB/BB I will sometimes throw out 8x's raises with multiple limpers and watch them all fold. If there is a caller or two, c-bet it and take it down from there if nothing too scary hits.
You have to think about who would *call* an 8x's raise in a situation like that? Ax won't. Kx won't. AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ/AJ would have raised by now. Pocket pairs are going to call you in that situation. They have a 1/8 chance of hitting. If you throw that much strength out there the only way they are going to play with you after the flop is if they hit.
I don't do this often...Only at certain tables with certain reads, but overall it's been a profitable play for me.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
I do this a lot on the button or cutoff with a reasonable hand. Axs, suited connector, any pair, etc., it's a profitable play in position, but not one out of position.
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I disagree. From the SB/BB I will sometimes throw out 8x's raises with multiple limpers and watch them all fold. If there is a caller or two, c-bet it and take it down from there if nothing too scary hits.
You have to think about who would *call* an 8x's raise in a situation like that? Ax won't. Kx won't. AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ/AJ would have raised by now. Pocket pairs are going to call you in that situation. They have a 1/8 chance of hitting. If you throw that much strength out there the only way they are going to play with you after the flop is if they hit.
I don't do this often...Only at certain tables with certain reads, but overall it's been a profitable play for me. |
People playing 25 NL aren't exactly players that play logically and will call with as little as any two broadways. Building a big pot out of position with a weak hand is not a good play. In general playing big pots out of position is a weak play unless you've got a hand.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
I do this a lot on the button or cutoff with a reasonable hand. Axs, suited connector, any pair, etc., it's a profitable play in position, but not one out of position.
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I disagree. From the SB/BB I will sometimes throw out 8x's raises with multiple limpers and watch them all fold. If there is a caller or two, c-bet it and take it down from there if nothing too scary hits.
You have to think about who would *call* an 8x's raise in a situation like that? Ax won't. Kx won't. AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ/AJ would have raised by now. Pocket pairs are going to call you in that situation. They have a 1/8 chance of hitting. If you throw that much strength out there the only way they are going to play with you after the flop is if they hit.
I don't do this often...Only at certain tables with certain reads, but overall it's been a profitable play for me. |
People playing 25 NL aren't exactly players that play logically and will call with as little as any two broadways. Building a big pot out of position with a weak hand is not a good play. In general playing big pots out of position is a weak play unless you've got a hand. |
Conclusion: don't make this play against people who don't understand what an 8x raise out of the SB/BB represents. It's an incredible show of strength which is why, under many circumstances, it's a good play.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Also note that you aren't trying to 'build the pot' OOP.. you are trying to win the hand early and without showdown.
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bearcats05
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12-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Post subject: Re: Raising limpers preflop
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#14 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iconoclastic
Since I've started $25 NLHE a week ago, I've noticed that selectively raising limpers and blind stealing (RL for short) preflop has been one of my most effective moves. Is it just me or do people really fear preflop raises? I take small pot after small pot after, well you know. My PFR% according to PokerTracker is now 19% because of this tactic. And that does not even include the equity from successful continuation bets.
This move has been so good to me that I even experimented by buying in with the minimum at a table and doing very little other than RL. I went with the minimum buyin rather than the standard buyin because a good player who sees a preflop raise from a short stack is less likely to play back even if he knows I have nothing because of the apparently lower FE. Plus this way they have no implied odds and are less likely to call with something like T9s.
The trick with this move is that it works best with Tight players. I've lost a few bucks messing with the wrong >insert derogatory nickname for Loose players here<. I have even gone so far as to keep Rocks on my Buddy List and avoiding the Loose Passive players that most sharks consider to be fish. Am I the only one who feeds on Rocks?
Let's discuss this strategy. I am curious as to the response from all kinds of players, not only LAGs.
BTW, I see some users have posted hand histories in this Hold'em Strategies section. We have a separate section for that.
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ok sorry to be offtopic but wtf why do you have free Chai Vang in your avatar??? he killed those hunters... and it wasnt self defense he shot some that didnt have guns and were just trying to get away and hide from him. Why in the hell would you support him?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i think we need to overstate the fact this doesnt work at anything less than 100nl and possibly at 50nl where your at a table of rocks.
you cant do it against looser players or caling stations.
That would appear to be my problem. If you're known as a looser play is there any way to adapt this?
For me raiisng in late position is almost guarenteed and unless i bet my stack on the urn i get no such thing as 'no showdown' Ideas?
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