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martindcx1e
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04-25-2006, 08:19 PM
Post subject: Raising for a free card
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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I realized today that this is something I rarely take advantage of, and I'm not really sure why. It just doesn't cross my mind. I'm wondering how many of you use this play regularly and what kind of conditions you use it in? Obviously you must have position on your opponent(s). Do you use it against more than a single villain? What kind of draws do you use it with most? Thanks for any input.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
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You should be doing this every time against passive players when you have position, and half the time against neutral players (not too passive, not too aggressive) when you feel their hand strength isn't premium. Against nitty players you bet the turn hard on a second semibluff if you think the turn card is both scary and didn't help him.
You should obviously be playing your draws more passive against good aggressive opponents. You need to make this a part of your game right away.
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Do you use it against more than a single villain?
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Depends. I do a lot. I usually draw the line at 4
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
What kind of draws do you use it with most?
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I do it with as little as 6 outs (overcards) against certain stingy passive opponents. Mostly with high flush draws that have possible overcard outs, and OESD with an overcard for a possible 11 clean outs.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
You should be doing this every time against passive players when you have position, and half the time against neutral players (not too passive, not too aggressive) when you feel their hand strength isn't premium. Against nitty players you bet the turn hard on a second semibluff if you think the turn card is both scary and didn't help him.
You should obviously be playing your draws more passive against good aggressive opponents. You need to make this a part of your game right away.
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Thanks Rondavu. I'll definitely start incorporating it.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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bigboy5540
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: california
Posts: 253
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
You should be doing this every time against passive players when you have position, and half the time against neutral players (not too passive, not too aggressive) when you feel their hand strength isn't premium. Against nitty players you bet the turn hard on a second semibluff if you think the turn card is both scary and didn't help him.
You should obviously be playing your draws more passive against good aggressive opponents. You need to make this a part of your game right away.
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Do you use it against more than a single villain?
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Depends. I do a lot. I usually draw the line at 4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
What kind of draws do you use it with most?
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I do it with as little as 6 outs (overcards) against certain stingy passive opponents. Mostly with high flush draws that have possible overcard outs, and OESD with an overcard for a possible 11 clean outs. |
i agree with everything you say here, ron, except the statement where you say you draw the line at four, as to how many opponents you will do this against. Doing it against 4 opponents when they are betting into you is a big, big, fishy mistake. Unless you have a sick read on the first or second better, who is betting into THREE other opponents, this move is suicide in most cases. Someone may be slowplaying as well. The original better very likely has two pair or better in this situation. Don't do it. You don't even have folding equity. You have more equity if you allow everyone in the pot and then catch the nuts in position. You might even stack someone who has a lower flush. Ron you still have a lot to learn buddy.
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im good at poker
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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At lower limits the guy who's betting is usually going to call you down no matter what. In this case, it's cheaper to try to make your hand this way and just fold the river when you miss.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Naked aggression is not always the answer
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Naked aggression is not always the answer |
I said nothing about naked aggression. What I am saying is if you have a hand good enough to raise for a free card. Than don’t stop there fight for the pot. The money in the middle belongs to you, and you should do every thing you can to get it back. For me if I raise the flop I am betting the turn, unless if a scare card comes. If you get into the habit of playing passive at the NL tables. The better players will run over you.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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saywhat, there are definitely sometimes where checking behind on the turn is better than betting.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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ya semibluffing is far more profitable on the flop than on the turn
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
Posted: Tue, 25 Apr 2006, 8:57pm
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Rondavu wrote:
You should be doing this every time against passive players when you have position, and half the time against neutral players (not too passive, not too aggressive) when you feel their hand strength isn't premium. Against nitty players you bet the turn hard on a second semibluff if you think the turn card is both scary and didn't help him.
You should obviously be playing your draws more passive against good aggressive opponents. You need to make this a part of your game right away.
martindcx1e wrote:
Do you use it against more than a single villain?
Depends. I do a lot. I usually draw the line at 4
martindcx1e wrote:
What kind of draws do you use it with most?
I do it with as little as 6 outs (overcards) against certain stingy passive opponents. Mostly with high flush draws that have possible overcard outs, and OESD with an overcard for a possible 11 clean outs.
i agree with everything you say here, ron, except the statement where you say you draw the line at four, as to how many opponents you will do this against. Doing it against 4 opponents when they are betting into you is a big, big, fishy mistake. Unless you have a sick read on the first or second better, who is betting into THREE other opponents, this move is suicide in most cases. Someone may be slowplaying as well. The original better very likely has two pair or better in this situation. Don't do it. You don't even have folding equity. You have more equity if you allow everyone in the pot and then catch the nuts in position. You might even stack someone who has a lower flush. Ron you still have a lot to learn buddy.
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I agree to an extent. Im not sure what the optimium amount of opponents is. However, how many players once they see aggression in position decide to play for stacks straight away? Im not sure. I see a lot of cold calling aggression with monsters. Because ppl want to slow play oh so much. However with a bettor oop and a few callers i think you destroy your pot equity by raising here anyway. If its 4 way and first player opens for 2/3 pot and gets two callers your getting great odds no matter what.
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In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Apart frm players who play at the fishiest sites on the net, party/bodog where big hands get paid REGARDLESS, i think raising for free cards on the flop and raising with monsters is a key prt of post flop play. Lukie made a very good post a while back about players cold calling flop bets and trying to play big pots on later streets with monsters. Aware players wont buy it and can fold easily. Also, trying to do the same on a draw holds little fold equity. Thus raisign the flop should be a key part of post-flop play with either monsters/draws/weak hands in position.
If you still disagree, go sit at a medium stakes lhe table where you need to manufacture pot odds quite a bit and then youll see how effective raising for a free card really is.
Naked aggression rules btw.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
I said nothing about naked aggression. What I am saying is if you have a hand good enough to raise for a free card. Than don’t stop there fight for the pot. The money in the middle belongs to you, and you should do every thing you can to get it back. For me if I raise the flop I am betting the turn, unless if a scare card comes. If you get into the habit of playing passive at the NL tables. The better players will run over you.
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So you will keep building a pot on a draw, even if you miss on the turn? And by the river if it still didn't come.. wuss out or bluff?! Sounds like a great way to lose money quickly if this is your standard line.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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My standard line with a draw out of position is to check, look for a weak bet and calls, and then raise big (about 4 times the original raise). If that doesn't take it down, I will either bet the turn hard or check again. Usually they will fear the 2nd check raise and let me see the river free. If my draw completes, or if a scare card hits, I put in a pretty sizable bet.
My standard line with a draw in position is to bet/raise the flop. Then bet the turn if I sense he's weak or check and take a freebie if I sense he's strong. Then give up if I miss the river.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
My standard line with a draw out of position is to check, look for a weak bet and calls, and then raise big (about 4 times the original raise). If that doesn't take it down, I will either bet the turn hard or check again. Usually they will fear the 2nd check raise and let me see the river free. If my draw completes, or if a scare card hits, I put in a pretty sizable bet.
My standard line with a draw in position is to bet/raise the flop. Then bet the turn if I sense he's weak or check and take a freebie if I sense he's strong. Then give up if I miss the river.
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I must say.. I think I just found a big void in my game. Great thread!
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
ya semibluffing is far more profitable on the flop than on the turn
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however, by raising the turn, you can find out if they are even gonna pay you off or not.
barry greenstein has a little section in his book about that.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Betting out at the flop, calling a raise, then check/raising all-in on the turn is quite possibly my favorite line with a big hand against an overly agressive player such as yourself.
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by saywhat2
In my opinion raising for a free card in NL is way overrated. If I raise the flop and somebody doesn’t come over the top of me you better believe I am betting the turn heavy. Aggression, Aggression, Aggression is the key to NL. If you are passive you will get run over. Further more if you check the turn and don’t hit you card on the river you can forget about stealing it at the river.
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Betting out at the flop, calling a raise, then check/raising all-in on the turn is quite possibly my favorite line with a big hand against an overly agressive player such as yourself. |
Why do you say I am overly aggressive? Because I don’t like playing passively? When I Decide to enter a pot I do every thing I can to win that pot. If I flop nothing, I throw the hand away. But If I flop say a flush draw with a gut shot st8 draw you better believe I am going to play it real aggressive. And you wont have to put me all in I will put you all in first. Now If I pick up just a gut shot st8 draw I wont even waist my time looking for a free card. The first 2 years I played NL I averaged 2 BB per 100 hands. I was not happy with my game and made some changes. I have averaged over 8bb per 100 hands at the NL tables since than, going on 3 years. The major changes in my game have been hand selection, more suited connectors ect…
And much more aggression after the flop. It works for me, my game is very similar to the one Doyle lays out in Super System1.
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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I too am big on aggression. About 75% I bet or raise w/ a flush draw, in or out of position, after the flop. Then, depending on my read of my opponent, I'm taking another shot at it on the turn. This is at the very least, a break even play.
What everyone here is forgetting is that raising or reraisng w/ draws isn't just to get a free card. You WILL take down the pot right there much of the time. Also, when you do get called and you make your flush or straight, it gets paid off WAY more than if you are making the transparent call call bet big after the flush card play.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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it sucks when you bet the turn with your draw and you get raised off of it and have to fold
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dpe8598
I too am big on aggression. About 75% I bet or raise w/ a flush draw, in or out of position, after the flop. Then, depending on my read of my opponent, I'm taking another shot at it on the turn. This is at the very least, a break even play.
What everyone here is forgetting is that raising or reraisng w/ draws isn't just to get a free card. You WILL take down the pot right there much of the time. Also, when you do get called and you make your flush or straight, it gets paid off WAY more than if you are making the transparent call call bet big after the flush card play.
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EXACTLY,Thankyou
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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I think many people make many -EV decisions because they are so caught up in having to be so aggressive all of the time.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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saywhat- This is kind of a stupid argument because we don't have anything to analyze. It's too general for me and we are speaking on so many 'hypotheticals' with nothing concrete to look at. I will say that based on what you have said, it seems like your agression can be very easily exploited in certain spots.
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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Its true that many people make -ev decisions being too aggressive. Many people also make -ev decisions trying to be tight or smart.
Also, I am not about mindless aggression. I am aggressive for 1 of 2 reasons. Either I think it will get me the most money in that hand, or I am very sure it will get me more money in future hands.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
ya semibluffing is far more profitable on the flop than on the turn
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however, by raising the turn, you can find out if they are even gonna pay you off or not.
barry greenstein has a little section in his book about that. |
Hey Gabe,
How is that book BTW? He is supposedly one of the best ring cash game players around.
Thanks!
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