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daven
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01-12-2011, 07:33 PM
Post subject: raising flop c-bets vs regs gogogo
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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I want to start an ideas thread too!
Raising c-bets is interesting. Like, do we all do it with sets on tt boards but never with sets on A94rb? what do we typically feel when our c-bets are raised? do other regs feel similarly? Does winning medium size pots when we miss our sets improve overall profitably for small pps? How about showing down AA in spots like this cos we flatted pre expecting a squeeze that never came? What HUD stats come into play here (e.g. flop c-bet, W$WSD, etc)?
thoughts? Once there are enough ideas floating around here i'll post something in a similar vein to when i got all worked up about opening AQ from utg in FR micro games
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Donachello
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: TROLOLOLOLOL
Posts: 849
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I mix c/r or just raising cbets into my game when I have sort of exhausted 3betting. Once someone realizes you 3bet light it's time to start flatting and picking good boards to raise cbets. It essentially accomplishes the same thing and actually probably works more often than 3betting since there's a massive number of board textures you can rep stuff on after flatting a raise preflop.
spoon made some chart of the various ways for certain hands to hit boards and it's pretty lol how difficult it is for most reggish ranges to actually have something when they cbet 70+% of the time.
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[00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
[00:30] <DC> daven
[00:30] <DC> on my hand?
[00:30] <daven> yep
[00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
[00:30] <daven> nice reason
[00:30] <daven> no further questions
[00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol
Problem officer...?
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NightGizmo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 268
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Raising a set on a tt board is standard because it's so easy to balance by raising strong draws, it gets value from our opponent's draws, and also protects against those draws. On a super dry board like A94r, it makes a lot more sense to just call to try to get get the opponent to put more money into the pot on his own. But at the same time, if we're calling with sets here then we probably have no raising range at all or our raising range only consists of bluffs, which is highly exploitable. So it's important to at least recognize that if you want to have a raising range on these kinds of boards and your opponent can adjust by calling or 3betting your bluff raises, you'll need to mix in some stronger hands occasionally for balance.
When our cbets are raised, it depends:
1) Total air vs a weak tight villain: easy fold, I'll get his money the next 10 times he folds.
2) Draw vs an aggressive opponent: calling/raising are definition options, depending on what seems more profitable.
3) Overpair vs a decent reg: damn, this sucks.
Obviously these are just a few examples, but the ones that I hate are similar to option 3, where we're either way ahead or way behind and we have no clear read on our opponent to sway our decision.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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just value raise if they don't believe you, bluff raise if they fold too much, and semi-bluff raise when they tend to call 1-2 but fold somewhere in the hand (be it flop, turn, or river).
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Flop c-bet% is a nifty HUD stat. If a villain cbets around 30%, then he's only doing it when he makes a hand. It's probably not a good idea to raise his cbets unless you're ahead of his range.
Against villains that cbet 60% or more, it becomes interesting. There are surely some who can be exploited profitably by raising with any two. I think you need a more specific read to know whether or not this is the case.
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couriermike
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
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if they're oop and it's a good c-bet flop, like one high card, and they bet small, like 4 into 7 instead of 5 into 7, that seems to be a good spot
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by couriermike
if they're oop and it's a good c-bet flop, like one high card, and they bet small, like 4 into 7 instead of 5 into 7, that seems to be a good spot
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or they could just be betting smaller because it's correct...
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Good start to the thread. I pay attention to a lot of what everyone else has said. M2M of course with a simple but great post. I use cbet%+board texture to determine situations where I want to float or bluff raise as long as their range is wide. Also history plays a part. For when I'm raised I check to see how often they raise cbets and then again board texture. Basically cbet%+board texture+villain's opening range when villain cbets and then cbetraise%+board texture+villain's preflop calling range when I cbet. I mean honestly I pay attention a lot (now) so you'll likely discover more factors like bet sizing or timing to add on to these things.
About Shania, I think it really depends on if you pick your spots correct but in most cases, yes, if we can win medium sized pots with bluffs to add on to biggish pots with sets then we'll create more +EV with our PP.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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the section in easy game about raising flops is particularly good
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filthy and the panic-attacks
the section in easy game about raising flops is particularly good
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which chapter is that?
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daviddem
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Philippines/Saudi Arabia
Posts: 983
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Chapter 19 has a bit in it about raising flops, also compares raising and floating, and talks a bit about balance.
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