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HiLo
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06-14-2007, 07:46 PM
Post subject: Raising behind multiple limpers
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 250
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I think this is probably quite a basic question, but please could someone help me with this as I am struggling with the theory a bit.
Do you generally need a stronger hand to raise with behind multiple limpers than you should raise behind 1 limper?
My thinking is that this should be the case because with multiple limpers it becomes more likely that one of them has a hand towards the top of his range. (Or is this theory contrary to basic probability?)
Hypothetical situations (assuming for simplicity that the winning hand will bet post flop and the losing hand(s) will fold):
1. You have KTo on the button. A positionally unaware player who is a 40/0 limps and then it is folded to you. Assume that the blinds will fold to a PFR and the limper will call any PFR you make.
Your KTo is in the middle of his range, and you should raise. Correct?
(PokerStove shows your equity here being 49.962% but the dead money from the blinds makes the play slightly +EV.)
2. Again you have KTo on the button, this time 2 limps to you (the players are both the same 40/0 as before. Again assume that the blinds will fold and both players will all call your PFR)
Is a PFR still correct?
(Poker stove shows a decreased relative equity from the previous example KTo=32.275% , the two 40% hands both=33.863%. This makes the play EV- as the dead blinds do not make up for our loss of equity)
Obviously in real life we have the opportunity to win pots by c-betting with missed hands and also winning bigger pots when a losing hand calls our value bets. I suppose the real question I am asking is, do these post-flop factors completely overshadow the small amount of equity we lose in playing multiway pots or do we still need to give some consideration to our decreased hand strength before raising after multiple limpers?
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AJinNorCal
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 16
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I think the assumption that the limpers will automatically call takes this question into the purely theoretical. I mean obviously if they are like 40/0 guys then sure, but half the time I'm raising to isolate anyway.
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JeffreyGB
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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My .02: In multiway pots with many limpers who are all likely to call a PFR, then no, it's not a good idea. Isolation raising in position against the single calling limper with many people in that will fold can be an any two thing at the right table though - especially if he's particularly weak postflop.
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HiLo
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 250
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
My .02: In multiway pots with many limpers who are all likely to call a PFR, then no, it's not a good idea.
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So at loose tables with many limpers who are very likely to call the PFR we tighten up our raising in position to big aces and PPs? (limping SCs and lower PPs?)
I like the way this means we will be playing bigger pots in position with premium hands. But have been confused by the concept as I have had it drummed into me that I should be playing a wider range against bad players like this - or does this theory only apply when talking about 1 bad player in isolation?
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The Izebox
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: bronx new york
Posts: 255
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"So at loose tables with many limpers who are very likely to call the PFR we tighten up our raising in position to big aces and PPs? (limping SCs and lower PPs?"
Correct. You need a stronger hand to raise multiple players than a single limper or just the blinds. But you dont need to be as strong as aces-queens. On a weak 6max table where the entire table limps to me on the button I would raise AJs+ and 99+, making my pfr 4bbs+ 1 bb for each limper. You cant limp with aq six handed.
That being said, I would limp with drawing hands (sc/ low pp) and fold decent high cards such as A ten, K9 etc. Again, with unpaired high cards its either raise/fold.
Punish the limpers bro
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Me? I always tell the truth.
Even when I lie.
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