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Raise preflop and miss on the flop.

  
 
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Corey
Old 11-16-2004, 06:16 PM     Post subject: Raise preflop and miss on the flop. #1 (permalink)  
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The sitiuational hand is AK. Whether its AK offsuit or suited it has crippled me and helped me.

Take these couple of situations and help me what I can do better.

Middle position - dealt AK offsuit

Everyone either calls the BB or fold and I raise 3 - 4 x BB three others then call.

Flop comes RAGS such as may 3, 6, 8. So therefore I miss. Since in middle position / early I check with 2 others behind me. Someone fires off a big raise I fold.

Late positions such as the Button or just before the button - dealt AK suited

Everyone folds or calls BB I again raise 3 - 4 x BB. two others call.

Flop comes RAGS again. So therefore once again I miss. Everyone has checked or placed the minimum bet. Should I re-raise or raise to see where I stand or check/fold.

This hand to me is one of the most difficult to play, if I miss. Since some people like J10 offsuited and suited I personally dont.

I have been thinking of just going all in with AK and see what happens.

FYI - this was early in the SnG and MTT blinds at a mere 15 - 30 in both circumstances. Having around 1300 - 1800 in chips.

Any help on this situation will be helpfull.

I want to say thank you to Mike0466 on IRC trying to help on this but of course my mind was elsewhere while playing in a 2 table SNG and a MTT. The SNG I won though.


Corey
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-16-2004, 06:19 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Reads. You need reads. Will they call bets preflop with junk? Will they check-raise to test you? Will they probably call with similar hands and thus you have the best of it?

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michael1123
Old 11-16-2004, 06:31 PM     Post subject: Re: Raise preflop and miss on the flop. #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey
I have been thinking of just going all in with AK and see what happens.

FYI - this was early in the SnG and MTT blinds at a mere 15 - 30 in both circumstances. Having around 1300 - 1800 in chips.
Don't ever insanely overbet like that, regularly at least. Any good player that sees you do that with AK will only be calling those big preflop overbets with AA, KK, or coinflip hands, leaving you with the worst of it much more often than with the best of it. When the blinds are big it can be a fine move, but unless its a rebuy, betting that much with 30 chip blinds is silly with any hand. AA is the only hand that really doesn't ask to be killed with such a big overbet, and its a crappy hand to 99% of the time just pick up the blinds.
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elipsesjeff
Old 11-16-2004, 06:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Not too big of a Tourny buff, but in late position if someone minimum bet to you, you should raise them the same amount you did pre-flop (or some amount unbeknowngst to me). If they re-raise you're probably beaten, if they call they will most likely check to you on the turn giving you a free river card then an easy fold if you still havent caught anything.

I dont know the size of the raise you make on the flop, but even if they had a monster they will call and check-raise you on the turn. By you taking your free card they will inevitably worry about losing a bet on the river so they'll have to bet if they have the goods. Strategy is fairly similar in a limit game, at least early on in tournies.


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DavSimon
Old 11-16-2004, 07:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Middle position - dealt AK offsuit

Everyone either calls the BB or fold and I raise 3 - 4 x BB three others then call.

Flop comes RAGS such as may 3, 6, 8. So therefore I miss. Since in middle position / early I check with 2 others behind me. Someone fires off a big raise I fold.
Since you have 1500-1800 chips and the blinds are only 15/30 I would probably have fired out a decent sized bet to see where I'm at...something like 120-200 - if you get reraised fold, but you may take it right there...you also may get called, in which case you will have to re-evaluate your position on the turn. (I have won many of these situations on the turn by firing out another bet - it seems that some people are willing to pay to see just one more card to see if they hit their draw - and will simply fold to a follow-up turn bet.) By checking to them you told them you are weak, and folding in this case was the best move...you have no reason to call.

But if you are the aggressor they have to try and figure out what you have - and most of the time they are going to think high PP or set with that kind of flop. So the only callers or raiser you will be getting is 3-3, 6-6, 8-8, (K-K or A-A who slow played - they should have PFR themselves) or something like 4-5s or Rippy's 4-7.....by betting you get a lot of information....and quite possibly take it right there.
Pushing with A-K post-flop when you miss this early in a tournament with only 10-15 BB to gain is not a good idea....who is going to call AI with that flop...pretty much only the hands that can beat you. A nice aggressive sized feeler bet is the way to go. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter - you playing again tonight?
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Corey
Old 11-16-2004, 08:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
you playing again tonight?

Its Tuesday night Home game night at friends house. I might play after depending if I want to sleep or not.


Corey
 
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dalecooper
Old 11-16-2004, 10:58 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I treat this the same regardless of position. If I raise pre-flop - and I mean a substantial raise, 3-4 x the BB - I will always raise an unraised pot after the flop, or even one with a minimum bet in. The raggier and more rainbowed the flop is, the bigger I will raise. I am representing a high pair and I don't want to make any mistake in representing it. I will usually bet at least as big as my pre-flop raise, maybe more if the pot is larger. If I get re-raised, I fold. If someone in later position just calls, I will bet again, usually twice as much, on the turn. The only time I vary this strategy is if the board pairs or a third of a suit pops up on the turn, then I'll just check it and let it go. Not worth bluffing into someone who has a legitimately good hand, or a strong draw that will encourage them to keep calling you.

The important elements:
- you have to have two overs to the flop cards, so you have outs. If you get into a bad situation, at least a face card on the turn or river might bail you out.
- preferably the flop should be rainbowed.
- preferably the board should not pair at any point. If it does pair it's up to you how you handle it. I will either just let it go at that point, or check-raise someone else to see if I can completely fake them out. A smart player won't fall for that BS tactic so use at your discretion.
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