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journey075
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06-09-2005, 08:35 PM
Post subject: raise AK/AQ in blinds?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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i had a run of AK, AQ and AKs in utg, bb, sb where i raised the first 2 to thin out limpers and get it 3 way or less. it worked and we saw a flop...a freaking 10 high flop both times.
if im in EP i cant seriously bet out here cause i know one of the guys will call me with an underpair. so i raise preflop and check/fold the flop if its no help?
wouldnt it be better just to limp and hope to hit TPTK? i cant imagine why raising in the worst positions with big cards isnt a leak.
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evman150
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 269
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In the blinds I just call/check with these hands, unless only one other player has called outside the blinds, then I'll raise.
But that's just me, I hate playing hands other than AA and KK out of position.
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Light years ahead of the competition.
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Theeggman
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 363
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The reason I raise with it from the blinds is to build the pot. I can't buy position so all I can do is hope to hit one of my cards on the flop and then get aggressive. I just hate limping it from the blinds and then when an A comes on the flop I've got no money in the pot and everyone folds. I figure "I've probably got the best hand here so I'm gonna bet it."
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I'll be a rootin' tootin' shootin' damn fool, protectin' my chips.
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Hubris1
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 163
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Crappy answer incoming: depends.
Specifically table texture and number of players to the flop. If the table texture is real passive I'll raise it UTG or from the blinds. If I'm on the SB and there's four or five limpers you have to raise this to narrow the field otherwise on a board of A89 out of position you have no idea where you stand. At least with a narrowed field you can hopefully rule out A8, 89 and A9 but with a lot of hands to the flop that's gotta be in your mind not to mention watching like a hawk for 88 or 99
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Unraised pot and you got AK in one of the blinds, why possibly think that you do not have the best hand here? You have the best hand = you raise just to put more money in the pot. Out of posiition just makes it difficult to steal the pot when you dont hit.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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yes, I always raise an unraised pot from the blinds with AK, sometimes I won't with AQo.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by evman150
In the blinds I just call/check with these hands, unless only one other player has called outside the blinds, then I'll raise.
But that's just me, I hate playing hands other than AA and KK out of position.
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Thats just weak tight
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evman150
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by evman150
In the blinds I just call/check with these hands, unless only one other player has called outside the blinds, then I'll raise.
But that's just me, I hate playing hands other than AA and KK out of position.
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Thats just weak tight |
Exactly. Out of position I'm weak tight. That's why I rarely play hands out of position. Position is by far the most important part of the game imo. At least for me.
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Light years ahead of the competition.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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The way I see it, if you think you have the best pre flop hand, then raise for value. If you hit you can just check raise against an aggressive opponent, a play which partly negates positional disadvantage. This way your opponents might think twice before stealing when you check out of position.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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btw from my 100k database I see that all those hands AK AKo AQs AQo from the BB and SBa re clear winners for me except for AQs from the BB for some reason. So raising them from the blinds works for me.
And overall AKo is my third biggest winner behind AA and QQ.
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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interesting discussion here. but any pocket pair is miles ahead of me, assuming im not getting 5 cards. if i only get to see a flop of rags, i dont have very good odds to hit.
im just not sure its a profitable play in the long term, but also im not sure how i can argue with a 100k hand database.
the way i see it, im raiisng and hoping for a miracle. and if i do hit my ace, i have almost no implied odds. only hands that are calling postflop raises are ones that have me beat.
anyway, i think im going back to limping with these hands in the first 3 positions. theyre too hard to play profitably and i think the only way to be profitable with them is to have some notion of implied odds. i think theyre basically thrown out the window if you raise out of position.
would love to hear more thoughts though.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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If you don't raise these hands against many limpers you are at greater risk of hitting the A or K against someones 2 pair or better, then all you have then is a great hand for paying them off! This of course means that you will be forced to play for a smaller pot even if you do hit. Instead isolate preferably 1-2 opponents and take it from there. If you are up against a low PP, they will mostly be playing for a set and will often fold to a continuation bet anyhow.
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journey075
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 725
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
If you don't raise these hands against many limpers you are at greater risk of hitting the A or K against someones 2 pair or better, then all you have then is a great hand for paying them off! This of course means that you will be forced to play for a smaller pot even if you do hit. Instead isolate preferably 1-2 opponents and take it from there. If you are up against a low PP, they will mostly be playing for a set and will often fold to a continuation bet anyhow.
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for some reason both arguments make sense. if there are 5+ limpers, its pretty obvious that i need to raise. but what if im UTG? same raise? in NL100 live (as an example) im raising $10 to thin out the field. maybe more. in 5/5NL im raising $40. i just dont like the idea of investing so much into such a speculative hand. however, i do agree that implied odds are never really good with tptk and that thinning out might be the best option.
in the 5/5 game i know for a fact a guy will call me with an underpair on a raggy flop unless i invest a serious amount of chips on the turn. but what if he calls that? i really dont feel like trying to bluff a guy out of a pot if its goign to cost me almost half of a $500 stack. if i make a continuation bet, im getting called. if i dont make a turn continuation bet, im surrendering the hand, and even then he'll call me some of the time. without any goods, its just hard to play a hand from EP if you got nothing.
i know im citing a specific player example, but still...
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Well make a note of that player and make him pay you off the next time you have a high PP. It really is all about knowing your opponent. A lot of players do easily fold low PP's even on a raggy flop, from their perspctive its just too expensive to find out if they are up against overcards or an overpair.
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DimitriT
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Well make a note of that player and make him pay you off the next time you have a high PP. It really is all about knowing your opponent. A lot of players do easily fold low PP's even on a raggy flop, from their perspctive its just too expensive to find out if they are up against overcards or an overpair.
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Low PP only works 1/8 of the time. For it to be profitable you need
a volume of at least 2 or 3 hands betting into a pot. Your PFR actually hurts low PP hands because it takes away this volume. Lets say you raise to 3xBB PFR and isolate to a small PP. Now he has to pay 3 and (lets say theres already 12 in the pot) needs to double the pot from here just to break even. Up against a tight plr, that probably won't happen unless he gets a hand big enough to beat the set. The rest of the time the small PP is just tossing money out the window as you are at a disadvantage if any face card shows up on the board.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DimitriT
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Well make a note of that player and make him pay you off the next time you have a high PP. It really is all about knowing your opponent. A lot of players do easily fold low PP's even on a raggy flop, from their perspctive its just too expensive to find out if they are up against overcards or an overpair.
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Low PP only works 1/8 of the time. For it to be profitable you need
a volume of at least 2 or 3 hands betting into a pot. Your PFR actually hurts low PP hands because it takes away this volume. Lets say you raise to 3xBB PFR and isolate to a small PP. Now he has to pay 3 and (lets say theres already 12 in the pot) needs to double the pot from here just to break even. Up against a tight plr, that probably won't happen unless he gets a hand big enough to beat the set. The rest of the time the small PP is just tossing money out the window as you are at a disadvantage if any face card shows up on the board. |
hmm...
I am having trouble deciphering what you are trying to say here..
Anyhow PP's work well in multiway pots and are also a great hand for calling raises against a single opponent. Most of your profit will come from PP's in the game of no limit.
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DimitriT
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 614
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Well, I'll try to be a little clearer:
odds low PP make a set: app. 1 in 8 and wins about 80% of those hands
PF pot: 12
low PP must pay 3 to go
This means he must get the pot to at least 24 (3 x 8) for this
play to profit him in the long term. Better to get the pot to 30
to allow for the times you will get beat.
If he's up against a tight plr this may be a challenge if the
plr only has TPTK or 2 pair. Against a loose plr its a much
better bet.
With multiple hands in you have a better chance of bring in
more to the pot.
This is why AQ and AK should raise PFR. You are making it
more challenging for the small PP and it is likely many will
fold.
hehe.. we are in violent agreement here I think 
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DimitriT
Well, I'll try to be a little clearer:
odds low PP make a set: app. 1 in 8 and wins about 80% of those hands
PF pot: 12
low PP must pay 3 to go
This means he must get the pot to at least 24 (3 x 8) for this
play to profit him in the long term. Better to get the pot to 30
to allow for the times you will get beat.
If he's up against a tight plr this may be a challenge if the
plr only has TPTK or 2 pair. Against a loose plr its a much
better bet.
With multiple hands in you have a better chance of bring in
more to the pot.
This is why AQ and AK should raise PFR. You are making it
more challenging for the small PP and it is likely many will
fold.
hehe.. we are in violent agreement here I think |
Thank you for clarifying
That makes sense.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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This is what works for me. I raise great hands hard from the blinds. I'm talking like 5/6xBB. Hopefully I just take it down right there. If not, I'm usually heads up and I continue hard on almost any flop. This is how I salvage horrible position. Doing this has high expectation, because half the time you don't hit anything you're scaring the shit out of your opponent anyway who folds. If he calls then check fold the turn/river without a hand.
Not to stray too far, but I play JJ the same way. I always want to be heads up with JJ. I must win more than most people do with that hand because I'm not afraid to invest in a much needed isolation. The thing about JJ is it might be vulnerable, but it's a made hand before the flop. You don't need any help. Your opponent almost always does. The thing about continuing hard is that if called or raised you have all the information you need. Muck it baby.
I say have some balls and isolate with good hands from the blinds with a solid preflop raise. Most times you'll pull down a nice pot before anyone knows what hit them.
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Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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