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Quick question regarding limp/re-raises

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-09-2009, 02:50 AM     Post subject: Quick question regarding limp/re-raises #1 (permalink)  
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 When a complete unknown limp re-raise shoves, should we just assume AA?

Or can we assign a weaker range like QQ+, AKo, AKs.

I've yet to see worse than AA do this, but what do you guys think?


EDIT: Assuming villain has roughly 100bb behind. I think I've witnessed short stackers do it with worse.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Illfavor
Old 03-09-2009, 02:54 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I have seen QQ and KK do this, never AK. I generally assign a very tight range along the lines of QQ+, which means I'm typically only calling with KK+.
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xpaand
Old 03-09-2009, 03:05 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Yeah you already have your answer I think. Unless the guy has like <25BB (depending on the stakes), it'd be safer to assume he has AA.
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If I bet as a bluff, I should be thinking "am I getting better hands to fold? Is it likely that he will fold x% of the time to a y sized bet to make it +EV?". If I bet for value, I should be thinking "am I getting worst hands to call? Am I ahead of enough of his range that this is a good value bet?".
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-09-2009, 03:17 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I hate folding KK preflop so I make this post

I'll probably just make my standard calling range KK/AA, and if villain is known I can alter as necessary.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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clvacva
Old 03-09-2009, 04:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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well I have done it like twice and had AA
I have seen people do it with TT-KK and AK/AQ
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okiman
Old 03-09-2009, 04:29 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I've seen people do it with AA/KK/AK at the 25nl tables, heavily weighted toward AA though.
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oskar
Old 03-09-2009, 04:41 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 You'll see trash regularly too. It depends on the villain. It's a retarded play, and retards do retarded things. If he's got 3% or less 3-bet I think you can safely assume it's AA or KK.
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bigspenda73
Old 03-09-2009, 10:33 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 at least we got our monthly quota of "can I fold KK PF" posts out of the way early in March!
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Old 03-09-2009, 10:39 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I've seen 66 do this
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sil693
Old 03-09-2009, 01:14 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
at least we got our monthly quota of "can I fold KK PF" posts out of the way early in March!
$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Doc62Holiday ($31.25)
UTG+1 agent 4529 ($5.65)
MP1 LeSwob ($43.35)
MP2 Hero ($25.00)
CO Tilt4You ($25.00)
BTN peconi ($25.00)
SB cee23 ($25.15)
BB Usurpov ($25.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 8 players) Hero is MP2
Doc62Holiday raises to $0.75, agent 4529 calls $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.50, 4 folds, Doc62Holiday raises to $8, agent 4529 goes all-in $4.90, Hero folds

Flop: ($17.50, 2 players)

Turn: ($17.50, 2 players)

River: ($17.50, 2 players)

Final Pot: $15.15
Doc62Holiday shows:
agent 4529 shows:

Doc62Holiday wins $2.35 ( lost -$5.65 )
agent 4529 wins $14.40 ( won +$8.75 )
Hero lost -$3.50

BAMBAMBAMBAM.
 
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Erpel
Old 03-09-2009, 03:44 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Image is a factor. Let's say you are in late position, you have been at this table with this villain for 100 hands, villain has limped in early position maybe 15 times and you've raised that up to isolate the limper maybe 6 of those times, 3 of them being the last 3 times he tried it.

He limps, you raise in position, he 3bets - he has trash and thinks you're full of shit "as usual" expecting you to fold.

Good luck with your kings.

Just because villains are bad doesn't mean they're stupid. As I was pointing out in a discussion the other day EVERYONE understands level 2 thinking - it's just the quality of thinking that suffers in bad players. Do they ever ask themselves if they're just giving away what they're playing? Of course they do. And then they go on to make the wrong conclusions and the wrong adjustments. It's not that villains don't think on level 2 or 1 or 0 - it's just that they don't think very well on those levels.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Maybe this guy knows enough to know that limp + reraise is always a monster and figure it's an easy way to get some free folds with trash against players good enough to know this. You never really know what people know, they may be absolute retards in the majority of their actions but have a couple of brilliant plays in their arsenal that they tend to use correctly.

I'm not sure I'd ever really play against someone limp re-raising different from a 3bettor out of the blinds unless I have some kind of read on this specific player.
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sil693
Old 03-09-2009, 04:49 PM #12 (permalink)  
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some people do it with trash.
others only do it with the nuts.

pay attention and keep track of who fits into which category.

if its an unknown, i tend to assume they have the nuts.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-09-2009, 06:27 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 My question regards facing an unknown.

Secenerio: 100bb effective stacks, UTG limps, you raise in MP, folds to UTG who shoves.

What range are you guys calling with?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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dev
Old 03-09-2009, 06:30 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
My question regards facing an unknown.

Secenerio: 100bb effective stacks, UTG limps, you raise in MP, folds to UTG who shoves.

What range are you guys calling with?
AK, JJ+

If he's doing this light, he's probably going to find a way to donk off his stack later anyway. That said, it's still usually a mid pair or AK.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-10-2009, 03:59 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Funny how as I now ask repsondents to think up some hand ranges only 1 person answers.

nh dev
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Illfavor
Old 03-10-2009, 04:58 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 I guess giving my calling range in the first reply doesn't count. Okie dokie.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-10-2009, 07:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor
I guess giving my calling range in the first reply doesn't count. Okie dokie.
Oh sorry man, I forgot you gave a calling range at the beginning.

My calling range is probably somewhere in between yours and Devs for 100bb...if stacks are smaller I lean more to Devs, if stacks are deep I lean more to yours.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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