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Vinland
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08-07-2009, 04:17 PM
Post subject: Question when playing a maniac...and table is adjusting...
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Last night I sat at a table at 5nl. There was a maniac running 99/65/1.5 for the session and a 3bet stat of 40%....basically if you had TPGK+ you could get the stack in with a + expectation over the long run. He had $30 in his stack when I joined (he had some lucky hands for sure), got up to $42 and proceeded to loose it all over about an hour.
So I will have to elaborate...
I agree that its best to tighten up against these players, remove bluffing from the arsenal and value bet them...
The problem I had is that the rest of the table saw he was donating and they LOOSENED up to play more hands against him.
So then, what do we do??
Players often 4bet him b/c he would 3bet with shit and call the 4bet with shit....
I can recall one hand where I had AQs from EP, I raised it, the maniac 3bet me and I was happy, I thought "great, I'll play heads up against him with AQ in a 3bet pot.."
Then a player after him 4bet him, followed by a caller and it came to me and I folded my AQs. The hand never went to showdown so I don't know what they all had.
I know that the others were lowering their starting requirements against him and my AQs may have been best, but should I have taken a hand like that into a 4way pot where 1/2 my stack for sure will be in the pot by the turn?
Would it have been better to just slightly loosen up my starting hands to play him? Or stick to my guns and wait for the right opportunity?
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I confess in quicksand
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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bump.
have been in same scenario and am curious about this too..
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just play hands that you're willing to felt
and it depends whether other people adjusted to him or if they're still 4bing QQ+,AK for value
you might THINK they adjusted but that might not be the case
also, if you feel like it you could limp pps if he raises a normal amount after limps because then you could call a raise and stack him if you hit a set (this doesn't work if people 3b him a lot after you limp)
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JustinSKS
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 115
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Iopq thanks, I have been wondering about this too.
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I fold AA preflop.
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I mean in general you have to widen your calling and raising ranges, but probably not against the other people that much
so I'd probably 4b/call it off vs. the maniac and fold against the other guy's 4b
because in most cases people are not going to be adjusting because they're pussies and they'll just wait for hands to bust him with
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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...also when the maniac folds, steal anything not nailed down to the table! People tend to stay in their value gear and aren't suspecting a steal nor trying very hard to defend against it.
Not as much applicable to the 9x/chow/meow guys, but certainly the 7x/meow/chow ones.
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I get the 7x and the 9x but what the meow is chow
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Doesn't matter. Basically maniacs that aren't in EVERY pot...
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givememyleg
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08-09-2009, 05:43 AM
Post subject: Re: Question when playing a maniac...and table is adjusting.
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#9 (permalink)
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,040
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Vinland
I agree that its best to tighten up against these players, remove bluffing from the arsenal and value bet them...
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no one in hell i'm tightening up against someone playing 99% of their hands.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Yeah, tightening up is your mistake. And it's not really your fault, it's a general misconception that has even made it's way into books and guides, etc. When people are playing a very wide range, you need to loosen up. If you are playing 80% of hands, then I can profitably play 60% or more of hands when I have position. Assume we are better postflop, and we will rack up against the fish playing 80% of hands. We just need to find out his tendencies and tailor our ranges to exploit that.
For instance, if he is playing 80% of hands, so we decide to play say 50% of hands (other factors such as players left to act, position, etc needs to be taken into account), and we figure out that he just bets 3 streets with a very high frequency. In that case, that means his betting range has loads of bluffs/air/weak hands in it. Which means, with our wide range, we should start calling with a wider range of hands.
Say he calls with a wide range, then we need to shrink the range of hands we bluff with (because he doesn't fold), and we need to widen the range of hands we value bet with (because he calls with worse so often). So in this case we can value bet his with a lot of hands, hands that would normally be considered 'marginal'.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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bluff less call more
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Yeah, tightening up is your mistake. And it's not really your fault, it's a general misconception that has even made it's way into books and guides, etc. When people are playing a very wide range, you need to loosen up. If you are playing 80% of hands, then I can profitably play 60% or more of hands when I have position. Assume we are better postflop, and we will rack up against the fish playing 80% of hands. We just need to find out his tendencies and tailor our ranges to exploit that.
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So why are we taught to tighten up super tight at 2nl where people are limping in with 40% of their hands?
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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actually if they're all limping, a lot of hands like A5s become profitable to play for a limp to stack someone with an underflush
so while you wouldn't play that UTG at another table, a limp happy table might be good for limping it UTG
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
actually if they're all limping, a lot of hands like A5s become profitable to play for a limp to stack someone with an underflush
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The wheel, trip 5s and two pair will also catch people second best for a lot of money in loose games.
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Vinland
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Between a couple of points.
Posts: 610
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Quote:
Yeah, tightening up is your mistake. And it's not really your fault, it's a general misconception that has even made it's way into books and guides, etc. When people are playing a very wide range, you need to loosen up. If you are playing 80% of hands, then I can profitably play 60% or more of hands when I have position. Assume we are better postflop, and we will rack up against the fish playing 80% of hands. We just need to find out his tendencies and tailor our ranges to exploit that.
For instance, if he is playing 80% of hands, so we decide to play say 50% of hands (other factors such as players left to act, position, etc needs to be taken into account), and we figure out that he just bets 3 streets with a very high frequency. In that case, that means his betting range has loads of bluffs/air/weak hands in it. Which means, with our wide range, we should start calling with a wider range of hands.
Say he calls with a wide range, then we need to shrink the range of hands we bluff with (because he doesn't fold), and we need to widen the range of hands we value bet with (because he calls with worse so often). So in this case we can value bet his with a lot of hands, hands that would normally be considered 'marginal'.
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OK I think I can agree with this, but what about the other players? It would've been great to get heads up with the guy, but the table was adjusting as well. By the time others saw what the maniac was up to, they loosened up as well but it often meant 3-4 players post flop....do we keep our starting requirments then or still loosen up preflop?
For instance, I would have no problem calling a 3bet with ATo heads up with the maniac, but how happy are we when there are 4 players post flop in a 4bet pot holding ATo? See what I mean? Against any ONE player I would be happy with AT, but against 3? I dont know....
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I confess in quicksand
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Poker Orifice
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Flush
Join Date: May 2008
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 324
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just play hands that you're willing to felt
and it depends whether other people adjusted to him or if they're still 4bing QQ+,AK for value
you might THINK they adjusted but that might not be the case
also, if you feel like it you could limp pps if he raises a normal amount after limps because then you could call a raise and stack him if you hit a set (this doesn't work if people 3b him a lot after you limp)
^^... isn't this the answer to your question if the table is 4-betting him and then 3-4players are seeing the flop?
Myself being a noob to cash games, one thing I'm doing for sure in this spot is.... 'writing the guy's name down and adding it to my 'friend's list' (I've got an extensive 'friends list', usually maniacs willing to donate to a worth cause... 'me')
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