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bumpnrun
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07-04-2008, 12:17 AM
Post subject: Question about rules (home game)
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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player in my home game thinks he's daniel negreuna and spends an aaaaaage over supposedly looking into peoples souls. Which is fine. But now he has this new trick that Im not sure is legal or not
Faced with an all in bet, after his usual questioning/delaying techniques....he then exposes both his hole cards looking for further reaction from his opponent before making a final decision
he does it every time. Is this legal? Its just that Ive never seen it done on ESPN :P
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frosst
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style
Posts: 220
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its a friggin home game. you guys should decide whether or not he can. in casinos, if you blatantly show your hole cards, it's treated as a muck.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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I have a buddy who does this all the time. We let him get away with it. He sucks at reading people's reactions anyway 
But yeah. What frosst said.
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bumpnrun
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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Thanks, we try to follow casino rules as much as possible so if its a muck there its a muck in our game
Which leads me to a new dilemna, he basically cheated me out of a very large pot with that move.
Do I now
A# hit him up about it (no benefit to me, moneys gone) or
B# wait till he does it again, insist on the auto muck .......and risk turning the home game into an absolute sh*tfight? lol
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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don't wait till he does it again...you wont get anywhere. Declare it before the game starts, and then if he does it declare his hand dead. This way, it looks like you did research and if agreed upon will get every other player on your side should he protest that he forgot or something. Just waiting for him to do it and then going "i just found out casinos declare that a mucked hand" is a sure fire way to get your home game into an absolute sh*tfight lol.
Also, if he's done this in the past and its been O.K. for him to do so, then sucks to be you if you lost a big pot because of it later on. Of course, i don't know the situation under which you were "cheated" and it may be the case that he does owe you money...just not because of showing his cards.
Also, some casinos only give penalties for flashing iirc
o and welcome to ftr
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Quit being anal over a home cause cause yer friend won a big pot vs you. If his lame trick worked it's yer own fault for showing emotion.
And yeah. Establish the rules beforehand if you don't want it to happen in the future. You can't retroactively apply rules on someone who didn't know they existed.
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bumpnrun
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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I dont think feeling p*ssed because you were effectively cheated is "being anal" is it? And its not just "a lame trick" either, its pretty obvious that showing a hand that beats you or doesnt will illicit some sort of reaction from most people. We are not pros
It may look like sour grapes because that night he did completely outplay everyone, the reality is its against the rules. And within our home game every effort is made to make sure the game is run properly
I wasnt being serious about springing the ruling after that fact...and cheers JKDS (altho I have posted on here before under a diff nick)
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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you weren't 'cheated' because it wasn't an established rule at your game that this move was disallowed otherwise people would have spoken up.
I think it's anal to nitpick rules at a home game. A home game (to me) is just fun with my friends, not the WSOP. When people get too serious, tensions arise and it's just not fun anymore when people get pissy.
...to each 'is own, but if losing the money is that big of a deal to you, maybe you should be playing for smaller amounts where you don't get emotionally wrapped up in it.
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bumpnrun
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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What a moronic way of looking at it, if rules are not adhered to then THATS when people get pissy. 
People didnt speak up because they didnt know the rule, which I am still trying to establish. Ive just heard from someone else using this ruse is rife at his local casino. And Doyle spoke about using it in Super System as well
And the money lost isnt a big deal at all, if it was I wouldnt be playing for it in the 1st place
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Just make it clear before the next game that its against the rules from now on.
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Just playing to improve.
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Dude_Here
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 95
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I do this at our home game once in awhile when faced with an all in. We also try and play close to casino rules but in this case I (and others once in awhile) will do this just for interests sake. It keeps the other ppl at the table interested in the hands. I personally don't look for reaction specifically. I just continue my line of thinking witht the cards face up instead of face down. If anyone at table didn't like it we would discontinue it also. Side note - we show quite a few mucked/losing hands also. Just the way it is there, Smaller group playing together for almost 2 years now.
For your game if it's not liked than you need to declare it as said b4.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
You want to hear what you want to hear, and nobody will change your mind.
The lesson which will stay is that which you experience on your own.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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It also depends on the casino and whether it's a cashgame or tournament. In cashgames nobody really cares - at least around here (the two biggest card casinos in europe). It usually is tolerated until someone objects. If he throws the cards in the muck face up, it's definitely a fold, and the dealer should just give you the chips and deal the next hand.
You can alway call "time". After that he has exactly one minute left to act until his hand is declared dead.
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bumpnrun
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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I should clarify these are not cash games, they are rebuy tournaments (or sitngoes I suppose since they are 10 players max) 
Thanks for your responses about setting the home rules ourselves, but Im more interesting in what the *actual* rule is.
ie could you do this at the WSOP main event. As that will determine how we set our home rule
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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Poker tournaments are a pretty young game. There are unfortunately no ultimate international rules. I'm pretty sure you can't do that at the WSOP, but even there I doubt that anything would be done unless the other player objects. The ruling would probably be a minor time penalty.
But it's a home game! If nobody but him is left to act, he should be able to do that IMHO. I also think you should be allowed to show one card if another player is left to act. I have never done it, but I like it when people do that
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Biglines
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 108
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This is pretty pathetic - there is no point in getting worked up about something like this.
You lost a big pot and are now trying to find a reason to carry on being pissed off about it. Furthermore you want to be pissed off with someone else rather than at yourself for making a bad play.
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xptboy
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Straight
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 187
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you lost ya money fair and square, I've seen pros on pokerTV do this on HSP in a casino, even though it wasn't a tournament
Set the rules up before the game, maybe write them down to look at the rules if you forget anything, but honestly in a home game I think it's best that none of the rules are seriously adhered to and just try and have fun. There wasn't a rule about this before, so he had every right to take the money from you seeing as you prolly gave off a tell or something. Quit being so pissed about it tbh...
I'm sure there is a tournament which allows this btw
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bumpnrun
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6
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Im not sure how I managed to come across as "pissed off" must with that many replies to this end I must have 
Im not remotely angry and couldnt care less about the money, I made it quite clear he outplayed the lot of us that night and that one pot probably wouldnt have made any difference. I just wanted to find out the actual rules, but it seems no one really knows/there are different rules all over the place
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,519
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Poker's a f'n game fer outlaws. badass drunken types who make their own rules.
You'z be lookin' fer bridge, son.
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xptboy
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Straight
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 187
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reason you come off as pissed off is you keep on saying "we play specifically by WSOP rules" and "should I confront him before or get in a fight next time this happens?"when it hardly matters, since rationally since there never was a rule then what your friend did should be allowed
have you looked at this in your friend POV? he's prolly enjoying playing his poker, and implementing this rule in a fun home game atmosphere could be detrimental to your friendship
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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If you want to play by WSOP rules the hand should not be mucked:
http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pd...t-rules.08.pdf
The following are the relevant rules:
50. A player exposing his or her cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. All players at the table are entitled to see the exposed card(s), if requested. A penalty may also be imposed if a player throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule or engages in similar behavior. Penalties will be invoked in cases of soft-play, abuse or disruptive behavior. All penalties will be imposed at Harrah’s sole and absolute discretion, in accordance with Rule No. 51.
51. In its sole and absolute discretion, Harrah’s may impose penalties that include verbal warnings and missed-hand penalties. A missed-hand penalty will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for each player at the table, including the offender, when the penalty is given, multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. Tournament staff can assess one-, two-, three- or four-round penalties or disqualification. Players who receive a missed-hand penalty must remain outside the designated tournament areas for the length of their penalty. The player must notify the tournament staff prior to returning to their seat. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties up to disqualification.
57. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, whether in a hand or not, players may not a.) disclose contents of live or folded hands, b.) advise or criticize play before the action is completed, or c.) read a hand that hasn’t been tabled. While in a hand, players may not a) discuss hands or strategy with any spectator, or b) seek or receive consultation from an outside source. The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced. Players who violate this rule are subject to penalty in accordance with Rule 51.
So in order to play by WSOP rules all you have to do is get a floor person who is not part of the game that will impose penality on rules violation and you are set to go
It is a home game, decide on the rules as you see fit and make sure everyone is clear on the rules before the game.
In our home game we allow exposing hole cards in case the pot is heads up but it is not allowed in multiway pot
If you really want to steer things up in your home game declare you play by WSOP rules and insist on following this rule:
87. Cell Phone Rule: All cell phones and other voice-enabled and “ringing” electronic devices must be silenced during tournament play. A player who wants to use a cell phone must be at least one table length away from their assigned table or be subject to penalty. The hand of any player talking on a cell phone, texting, e-mailing or otherwise communicating electronically while in a hand with action pending will be declared dead. Any player using a cellular phone while in a hand with no action pending (player has gone all-in) will receive a missed hand penalty to be assessed on the next hand. Any player using a cell phone while at their seat even if not in a hand will receive a missed hand penalty. No cell phones or other electronic communication device can be placed on a poker table.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Robert's Rules:
http://pokercoach.us/
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sweetlemon69
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 296
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