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Question about Renton's "KK when an ace flops" lin

  
 
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caddie444
Old 06-19-2009, 04:05 AM     Post subject: Question about Renton's "KK when an ace flops" lin #1 (permalink)  
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 and by lin I mean line (Acronym Renton Hates)

I was reading Renton's SS-NLHE Ring Strategy when I came across this:

Quote:
The only difference with KK specifically is when the flop is ace high. In this spot my standard line is to continuation bet the flop (for about 2/3 the pot) and check and fold the turn
I am a sit'n'go player who has recently made the shift to ring games. My default line for when I have KK and an ace flops in a sit'n'go is to get to showdown cheaply as hell and catch bluffs along the way.

Shouldn't we use the same logic for ring games? Take this hand for example:

Villain is 20/8 over 120

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($12)
MP1 ($5.85)
Hero (MP2) ($9.75)
MP3 ($10.75)
CO ($10)
Button ($8.05)
SB ($5.90)
BB ($11.30)
UTG ($3.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K
3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, 2 folds, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.95) A, J, 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.95) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

River: ($2.15) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1, Hero calls $1

Total pot: $4.15 | Rake: $0.20

Results:
Button had 4, 4 (two pair, Aces and fours).
Hero had K, K (two pair, Aces and Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $3.95

or this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($10.90)
Button ($10.65)
SB ($5.80)
BB ($16.50)
UTG ($11.05)
UTG+1 ($12.15)
MP1 ($10.40)
MP2 ($2.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
4 folds, Hero bets $0.30, 1 fold, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.70) A, 10, 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.70) Q (2 players)
SB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

River: ($1.90) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Total pot: $3.10 | Rake: $0.15

Results:
SB had J, J (two pair, Jacks and eights).
Hero had K, K (two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero won $2.95

If we bet these flops aren't we just getting worse hands to fold and better hands to call? Does the fact that we do not have to worry about elimination factor into Renton's advice for leading the flop?


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Stacks
Old 06-19-2009, 04:49 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 It depends... In some situations you can bet and still have worse hands call. For instance, say you bet the flop in hand 1. Sure any Ace is calling, but in most cases so is QQ/Jx/Flush draws/gutshots. Same goes for hand #2 in which flush draws/straight draws/Middle pairs//JJ-QQ could all call a bet. So betting is still getting value from worse, and isnt' making only better hands call and worse fold.

However, it depends on villains calling range opposed to his betting range if you check. If villain is only calling Better hands (Ax+) when you cbet, but has a wide range, and is willing to bet that wide range often, then a check/call would be a much better line. If villain is likely to call wide, and be relatively passive when you check (aka not bet worse often, or bluff all that often), then vbetting the flop is likely best. So yeah, it depends.
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elipsesjeff
Old 06-19-2009, 05:53 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 link? I'm assuming his advice is way out dated. Do a search for a similar title yet it was created by Gabe and in the SNG Forum.


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caddie444
Old 06-19-2009, 06:12 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
link?
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ii-t40404.html

located 2 paragraphs after "first scenario"

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
It depends... it depends on villains calling range opposed to his betting range if you check.
Yah Stacks I know that its highly opponent dependent, and I do take notes on players and try to pick up on habits etc...

I've been cutting down on the amount of tables I play so I can get into the habit of taking notes and not becoming an HUD bot.

I guess I was just surprised that this was Renton's "standard line" when I know that the majority of players in the micro's can't fold aces before the flop.


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Stacks
Old 06-19-2009, 06:36 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 It's true that the majority of micro plays can't fold Ax before the flop, but it also holds true that they have a hard time folding 2nd/3rd pair postflop also. So there is definitely still value in betting. Also it adds a bit of deception to your hand, and while not that important, can usually make the hand play easier. You bet the flop, and get called, it's usually a pretty easy c/f on turn (barring reads). You check the flop, then it's time to guess villain's bluffing frequency in comparison to his vbetting range, and try to make call downs.

I'm not saying take the easiest line. Take the line that maximizes EV, but if a villain's weakness is to call too much, and not bet often enough (as is one of the biggest microstakes leaks), then you usually have good value to cbet KK on Axx board.

Either way it comes down a range analysis... Determine what hands would call a cbet, and figure your equity.. Then determine what hands would bet if you check, then determine your equity, and take the line with the greatest EV.
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elipsesjeff
Old 06-20-2009, 06:58 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Here's a better argument against betting than I could ever make:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ce-t21766.html


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nish81
Old 06-20-2009, 08:59 AM #7 (permalink)  
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IMO you need a stronger hand to call than you do to bet with, but to lower stakes players it often seems the opposite way. so you might be getting some value out of a c-bet. plus if it's HU, he only needs to fold about 1/3 of the time for you to make money out of this, assuming you lose every time he doesnt fold, and you might get some marginal hands to fold
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

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JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Stacks
Old 06-20-2009, 09:46 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
IMO you need a stronger hand to call than you do to bet with
This is pretty much true. And the reason is because of fold equity. When you bet, you not only have your equity in the pot as a way to win, but you also have the wonderful benefit of having your villain fold some % of the time, thereby relinquishing all his equity in the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
so you might be getting some value out of a c-bet.
I certainly think so in most cases. For instance in hand #1, if we bet most villains are calling Ax, Jx, QQ type hands. They are likely raising their nut hands (AA/JJ/AJ/66), and either calling or raising their draws (FDs, Gutshots). So when we bet here, we get value for all of his Jx, QQ, draws, etc type hands that will call.

It's certainly not going to be a very pleasant situation on future streets if you cbet and he calls. As you are likely c/folding most turns/rivers. However, it's also not going to be a very pleasant situation if you check the flop either. Either you are going to have to guestimate his bluffing frequency, and make some HEROish calldowns, or get bluffed off of the best hand often, and not getting much value when ahead (as most worse hands {Jx, QQ} check behind this flop, but would call a bet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
plus if it's HU, he only needs to fold about 1/3 of the time for you to make money out of this, assuming you lose every time he doesnt fold, and you might get some marginal hands to fold
It depends on your betsize how often he needs to fold to have your bet be profitable. If you bet 1/2 pot, then he needs to fold 33% of the time, so yes you are correct here.

However, I have a problem with your last bolded statement. That's the thing.. We don't want him to fold marginal hands, as most marginal hands are worse hands than KK. If we are betting KK here, it's because we believe their is value in betting. That is we believe we have >50% equity against villains calling range, and therefore choose to bet. We want all of his marginal hands to continue. Although, I do agree that him folding those hands, such as 6d7d that we are ahead would not be a bad outcome for us.

However, if we bet 1/2 pot, him calling a hand like 7d6d, which has 23% equity against us btw, would be more beneficial to us than if he folds. Since if we bet 1/2 PSB, he will need 25% equity to call, and he doesn't have that equity, and is therefore making a mistake.

So basically we need to be aware of what we are intending to do. We aren't betting to "rep" the ace, or "define our hand". We are betting for value here, and if we don't have value in a bet here, then checking is going to be the correct play (with us soulreading his bluffing frequencies, and either folding or calling).

I'd like to point out that I would be more likely to bet KK on an Ace high board if I'm OOP. Even if it's the same board, against the same villain. Not because there likely still isn't value to be had in the flop bet, but because their is likely more value to be had from either bluff catching later streets, or vbetting later streets. OOP it's really just not a great spot no matter your action (in most cases).

**Disclaimer: I'm not arguing that betting is >>> checking. I'm just saying they aren't likely all that different in EV in most instances. And that it does still depend on the villain and his calling/betting tendencies. If he's the type to call down lightly, then betting will be +EV. If he's the type to bet any two when checked to, then check/calling is likely best.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:06 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
IMO you need a stronger hand to call than you do to bet with
it goes both ways
here are our ranges against a bet:

|-fold-|raise-|-call-|-raise|

so we fold our WEAKEST hands, we raise our weak hands that are not worth calling with as a semi-bluff (sometimes we elect to fold these), we call with our hands that are +EV to call with (sometimes we elect to raise with these), and we raise our best hands

so you need a better hand to call with than to raise as a bluff, but an even better hand to raise for value
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nish81
Old 06-20-2009, 11:48 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
plus if it's HU, he only needs to fold about 1/3 of the time for you to make money out of this, assuming you lose every time he doesnt fold, and you might get some marginal hands to fold
However, I have a problem with your last bolded statement. That's the thing.. We don't want him to fold marginal hands, as most marginal hands are worse hands than KK. If we are betting KK here, it's because we believe their is value in betting. That is we believe we have >50% equity against villains calling range, and therefore choose to bet. We want all of his marginal hands to continue. Although, I do agree that him folding those hands, such as 6d7d that we are ahead would not be a bad outcome for us.

However, if we bet 1/2 pot, him calling a hand like 7d6d, which has 23% equity against us btw, would be more beneficial to us than if he folds. Since if we bet 1/2 PSB, he will need 25% equity to call, and he doesn't have that equity, and is therefore making a mistake.
Ah, I see what you mean. But doesn't this remove consideration of our fold equity? As in, one line of reasoning goes that 1/2 sized c-bets are profitable because your opponent only needs to fold 33% of the time - i.e. you're taking advantage of your fold equity to make the move +ev. But here, you're value-betting, which is different, because you're now taking advantage of the fact that worse hands will call right? So am I right to assume that the two reasons for c-betting apply to different hands - that is, since we have a reasonably strong hand here with some showdown value, we're not trying to take advantage of fold equity because a value bet is more +ev? Whereas if we had a weaker hand we'd be c-betting on the basis of fold equity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
it goes both ways
here are our ranges against a bet:

|-fold-|raise-|-call-|-raise|

so we fold our WEAKEST hands, we raise our weak hands that are not worth calling with as a semi-bluff (sometimes we elect to fold these), we call with our hands that are +EV to call with (sometimes we elect to raise with these), and we raise our best hands

so you need a better hand to call with than to raise as a bluff, but an even better hand to raise for value
Right, I take your point. But i was thinking more of a situation where you're opening the betting - you could, say, c-bet a HU flop which you missed or made a medium pair, and still make it profitable because of fold equity, (the whole 'opponent needs to fold 33% of the time...' with a 1/2 sized bet). But if someone bets that flop into you, wouldn't you need a stronger hand to call/raise with? (stronger than the missed hand which you c-bet into someone).
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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nish: in your example, you would probably call a middle pair if someone donked into you (if they bet the flop and you were the PFR), but raise ace high
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nish81
Old 06-20-2009, 12:40 PM #12 (permalink)  
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cool, got it. thanks
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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oskar
Old 06-20-2009, 03:31 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Here's a better argument against betting than I could ever make:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ce-t21766.html
In this thread they're talking about c-betting after 3b an UTG open. I don't think this translates to being the initial raiser and getting called at all. The ranges are completely different.
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elipsesjeff
Old 06-20-2009, 04:28 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 The two ranges are different but the theory behind it remains the same.

Seriously, i'm just going to start telling everyone to bet KK on an Ace high board because it makes it easier to play. Since that is the reason we play poker anyway--because its easy!


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jyms
Old 06-20-2009, 04:47 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Betting to see where your at makes poker eeaassssyyy.






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shoneec
Old 06-20-2009, 04:54 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Here is a hand I regret for c/betting with KK on an Ace high board.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($8.25)
SB ($8.65)
BB ($10.90)
UTG ($5.17)
Hero (UTG+1) ($9.51)
Villain (MP1) ($1.64)
MP2 ($5)
MP3 ($5.72)
CO ($2.13)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, K
1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, Villain calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, MP3 calls $0.08, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.35) 5, J, A (4 players)
Hero bets $0.20, Villain calls $0.20, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.95) 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.26, Villain calls $0.26, MP3 calls $0.26

River: ($1.73) J (3 players)
Hero bets $0.26, Villain raises to $0.52, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.26

Total pot: $2.77 | Rake: $0.10

Results:
Hero mucked K, K (two pair, Kings and Jacks).
Villain had 4, J (three of a kind, Jacks).
Outcome: Villain won $2.67
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nish81
Old 06-20-2009, 05:30 PM #17 (permalink)  
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In reference to the above hand, I'd never c-bet with three other villains
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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shoneec
Old 06-20-2009, 05:43 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
In reference to the above hand, I'd never c-bet with three other villains

I've been killing these guys at the table. They will pay the raise just to see the flop and then fold to my cbet on flop 70% of the time.

They couldn't play more passively, that's the reason I cbet here.
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:24 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
Betting to see where your at makes poker eeaassssyyy.






Easy does not pay the bills.
Open shove preflop every hand to see where you're at.
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kmind
Old 06-20-2009, 07:10 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoneec
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
In reference to the above hand, I'd never c-bet with three other villains

I've been killing these guys at the table. They will pay the raise just to see the flop and then fold to my cbet on flop 70% of the time.

They couldn't play more passively, that's the reason I cbet here.
I probably wouldn't have KK in my bluffing range
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shoneec
Old 06-20-2009, 08:30 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoneec
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
In reference to the above hand, I'd never c-bet with three other villains

I've been killing these guys at the table. They will pay the raise just to see the flop and then fold to my cbet on flop 70% of the time.

They couldn't play more passively, that's the reason I cbet here.
I probably wouldn't have KK in my bluffing range
You mean that you wouldn't play this hand the way I played it or?
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:50 PM #22 (permalink)  
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thing is if you check/call the flop it's super easy to hand read you for jj-kk and unless you're known to be very tricky they will either
a)3barrel bluff if you like to fold
b)take you to value town if you're a station

They'll know what's going on, you'll have to guess
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Stacks
Old 06-20-2009, 10:26 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 That alone twosmeets is not reason enough to bet. It just means that in these spots you may need to merge your ranges a bit, and have some stronger hands in your flop c/calling range, which will strengthen your range and therefore make it less profitable for villains to (a) 3barrel bluff you or (b) valuetown you.
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:32 PM #24 (permalink)  
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I bet the flop because people auto-float with a pair against a cbet
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elipsesjeff
Old 06-21-2009, 05:40 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I bet the flop because people auto-float with a pair against a cbet
u r a pro


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Old 06-21-2009, 06:06 AM #26 (permalink)  
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 advice is outdated

it was a bet then, then it was a check, now its back to being a bet again.
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Old 06-21-2009, 09:17 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
That alone twosmeets is not reason enough to bet. It just means that in these spots you may need to merge your ranges a bit, and have some stronger hands in your flop c/calling range, which will strengthen your range and therefore make it less profitable for villains to (a) 3barrel bluff you or (b) valuetown you.
"unless ur known to be very tricky"

What you say makes sense but I wouldn't bother except against regs you know are watching AND you know you will play against many many times.

Also it's not the only reason, I just wanted to throw one out there
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JoeHaw
Old 06-21-2009, 04:37 PM #28 (permalink)  
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*sigh*
just when I finsih reading Gabe's old thread.
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