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rtcannon
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07-24-2009, 03:49 AM
Post subject: Question about the hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12
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I am new here to the forums and I just had this hand happen to me a little while ago. I was wondering if there was any way that I could have gotten away from this. I figured if he had KK or QQ then he would have raised me along the way. I put him on either a flush draw or AK, KQ, or two hearts. Maybe even AJ or A10. Regardless is my bet sizing ok to try and price him out and is the river shove ok? Thanks for any help.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) -
saw flop
Hero (CO) ($6.55)
Button ($9.12)
SB ($9.25)
Villian (BB) ($9.11)
UTG ($7)
UTG+1 ($2.65)
MP1 ($8.25)
MP2 ($4.22)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 2 , 2
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15, SB calls $0.13, Villian calls $0.10
Flop: ($0.75) K, Q, 2 (5 players)
SB checks, Villian bets $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Villian calls $0.50
Turn: ($2.25) 4 (2 players)
Villian bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.50, Villian calls $1.25
River: ($5.25) 3 (2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets $4.15 (All-In), Villian calls $4.15
Total pot: $13.55 | Rake: $0.65
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I'd go bigger on the flop/turn but other than that it's fine
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Agree, I just make it $1 even on flop and relatively large on turn. You want to max value from draws that'll fold on the river.
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Just playing to improve.
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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At the smaller stakes, understand that your opponents will be VERY willing to call even bigger bets. Use this fact to gain as much value as possible from your hands.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Sam62
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 56
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I would check the river ... Heres why ... Unless you have a read you did not mention. I look at stack size as a read if I have none. They have almost doubled their buy in which typically shows skill. The pot is large and a good player will usually call that with KK or QQ. I think this river shove loses long term in this scenario
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sam62
The pot is large and a good player will usually call that with KK or QQ.
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so we should only value bet in spots where the nuts are going to fold?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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Sam62
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 56
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No ... If you read my entire post. The read on the player would change my action. I could see value betting. In my opinion with no read Check is my move here.
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optimists
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 10
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I agree that stack size may be an indication of skill, but in this case, I would pay more attention to the betting style of a villain and it very much looks like he is on a draw (flush draw), I would assume AhTh (or any other hearts may be 98 or something or even 54).
1) Pre-flop BB makes a call of $0.10 to the pot of $0.65. His odds are 6:1, basically I would call this with almost any suited cards (note that there have been no re-raises from other players, indicating that everyone else is with a mediocre hand).
2) After the flop, he has 36% chance to hit his flush, thus he bets $0.25 and after small re-raise, the pot is $1.75 with $0.5 to call - great change to call to draw the flush.
3) On turn villain's chances to see a heart diminish and he puts in at least something believing this would allow him to see the next card for almost free (well after Hero's raise, he is faced with odds of 1.25 to win $5.25 - 24% (bad call, but he may be already pot committed and he decides to call.
4) River does not help him and he checks. I guess he folded to the shove...
Actually, on the river I would have put a smaller bet (to try to trap the guy and to get at least some value.
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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I really don't see how stack size is any indication of skill. For one thing on some sites you can buy in for 200bbs or more depending on the table. Even disregarding that, all it takes is a couple suckouts and a terrible player has a 300bb stack. If you just sit down at a table and place a "skill level" based on stack size, use that as a read and play a certain way against them, I highly doubt it's +EV.
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What kind of doucebag line is villain taking on the turn? He calls your raise on the flop OOP then donks into your for 10% of the pot? If he's trying to induce a raise, then why not 3bet the turn? His play tilts me. Checking behind on the river would have been fine.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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was it Ah5h or 5h6h?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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OP should start considering the odds that his bets and raises give his opponent. Then he will see that he should raise more on the flop and turn and why not doing so is a decent-sized mistake.
OP should not give results to the hand, which he has by saying he should have gotten away from it or whatever words he/she used to describe it.
Additionally, OP should title his posts better. Something like "5nl FR - Not sure about my play with bottom set" would be much better and lead to much better responses, which in turn leads to getting better at poker faster, which leads to making more money.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sam62
I would check the river ... Heres why ... Unless you have a read you did not mention. I look at stack size as a read if I have none. They have almost doubled their buy in which typically shows skill. The pot is large and a good player will usually call that with KK or QQ. I think this river shove loses long term in this scenario
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This isn't quite right for a number of reasons, even ignoring the fact that you can buy in for $10 at this level on PokerStars. Any donk can double up. If you don't know how he got this stack, then knowing he has this stack is next to useless for the purpose of any "reads". He could have shoved T5o preflop and beat Aces, you just don't know.
Additionally, this post shows that your thought process is flawed because you're not thinking about putting your opponent on a range and breaking down the best way to play against how he plays that range. For example, you're suggesting that a "good player" would bet small and call two streets with top or middle set on a really dynamic board and would play no other hands like this, which is ridiculous. While it's obviously possible that these hands are a certain portion of his range, you have not considered the other hands in his range.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
Checking behind on the river would have been fine.
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If you were a dog, I would beat you with a newspaper until you stopped and learned your lesson. Wanting to check behind on the river is a great example of not getting value which new players are soso good at.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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RoyalProdigy
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 178
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I'm over betting the turn, but thats just me. If he has a bigger set oh well i'm not letting him hit his draw for cheap at that point in the hand. He bets a quarter trying to buy a card, you said nope and raised but your raise isnt enough to push him off his gutshot and his flush draw. Some of you can say this is a bad play, thats fine but on the turn i'm shoving taking into account my stack size. Calling his redonkulas bet is dumb, raising no matter what it is 2/3rds pot or a pot size bet commits me, imo. So why not just shove and take 2.50? He may call on a draw, top two pair, AA (which i doubt he has) and at worst he has a set of Queens. I doubt he has KK (no reraise PF) and QQ is possable but i doubt it at this level without a reraise PF. So with all that said he has sh!t but a draw. Punish him on the turn hard. Thats my opinion. I would have at least reraised too 2.50 on the turn but i like a shove, some people cant fold draws, they just cant and my odds of winning the hand with one card to come are very good with a hand like this.
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Stack That Arab Money!!!
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CrazyAndy27s
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 25
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As said above, I would make the bet sizes on the flop and turn a bit bigger, maybe $0.90 on the flop and $2.10 on the turn, I wouldn't worry too much about set over set because it doesn't happen that often.
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golfguy37
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Straight
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 217
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I dont even know why you posted this you played it fine. Your ahead 90% and this time you ran into the QQ or KK and got unlucky. Theres no way you should even think about getting away from it
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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slightly larger flop, a bit bigger on turn (that turn card changes nothing so he'll feel safer putting money in), and great river shove
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