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kalik
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08-24-2009, 10:25 AM
Post subject: question about 74o
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6
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I am on the SB with 74o. The 10 players table. Everybody folds to me.
And one of the poker teaching program suggest to limp it now. But I have heard that it is not a playable hand and I shouldn't play it in any positions. Am I right?
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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^ What he said.
If the BB is a total nit like 8/2 with a 100% FTS, steal with ATC. But don't open limp. Raise or fold, keep the pressure on. FWIW just fold 74o unless you know what to do post-flop with it.
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only_bridge
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 100
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What poker teaching program suggests limping there and why? Sounds like a bad idea.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by only_bridge
What poker teaching program suggests limping there and why? Sounds like a bad idea.
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Rippy's guide to busto
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Lucothefish
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cretaceous Park
Posts: 701
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by only_bridge
What poker teaching program suggests limping there and why? Sounds like a bad idea.
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Rippy's guide to busto |
I was gonna suggest the OP for potw, but damn jyms I lol'd
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<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?
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JR9477
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 426
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I like to raise 74o from EP
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(Josh)
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Only limp it if it's clubs obv.
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kalik
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6
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Poker Academy Pro 2 demo.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
^ What he said.
If the BB is a total nit like 8/2 with a 100% FTS, steal with ATC. But don't open limp. Raise or fold, keep the pressure on. FWIW just fold 74o unless you know what to do post-flop with it.
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I don't like steals from the small blind with marginal hands, for several reasons:
1. You are out of position. When you steal from the button or cut-off, you have position if someone defends the blind.
2. You aren't stealing very much anyway. When you steal from the button or cut-off, you are stealing 1 1/2 bb's. When you steal from the sb, you are stealing 33 percent less money.
3. Your hand better play well heads-up, because there is no possibility of it being in a multi-way pot. This is underappreciated, but one reason you can get away with steals with hands such as suited connectors and 1-gappers in late position is that if everyone defends, you can still end up in a multi-way pot with position, which isn't a terrible thing. But if you know you are going to be heads up, you better have a strong hand for heads-up play.
Bottom line, unless you know your fold equity is close to 100 percent, fold this.
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etrong
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2
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fold fold fold
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Bottom line, unless you know your fold equity is close to 100 percent, fold this.
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Hence the mentioning of a nitty 100% fold to steal of the person you're stealing from. 
Hands like 74o is pushing it though. If you do get called, don't continue with less than 2P+ obv.
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only_bridge
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Posts: 100
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If the question was 10 players table in a tourney, with big antes and blinds, and the BB player is so tight he would fold anything, I would say go on and raise.
If the question is about cash games, I would throw this hand even when BB is a total nit.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Bottom line, unless you know your fold equity is close to 100 percent, fold this.
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Hence the mentioning of a nitty 100% fold to steal of the person you're stealing from.
Hands like 74o is pushing it though. If you do get called, don't continue with less than 2P+ obv. |
If I'm stealing with a hand as weak as 74o, I'm defo not giving up every pot unless I flop 2 pair+. We're obv still c-betting favourable boards. I'm not ever doing it in the first place though unless he's a huge nit.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Bottom line, unless you know your fold equity is close to 100 percent, fold this.
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Hence the mentioning of a nitty 100% fold to steal of the person you're stealing from.
Hands like 74o is pushing it though. If you do get called, don't continue with less than 2P+ obv. |
If I'm stealing with a hand as weak as 74o, I'm defo not giving up every pot unless I flop 2 pair+. We're obv still c-betting favourable boards. I'm not ever doing it in the first place though unless he's a huge nit. |
That's correct. As I said, I really don't like steals from the small blind with 74o. But if you are going to do it, c-betting is absolutely essential. Indeed, there are lots of players whose concept of "blind defense" consists of calling the pre-flop raise, hoping to hit something on the flop, and giving up if they don't.
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surviva316
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08-24-2009, 10:59 PM
Post subject: Re: question about 74o
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#16 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kalik
question about 74o
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oh man....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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FWIW when "stealing" from SB, you are "stealing" the exact same amount.
Other than that, just FOLD.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nutty McMutt
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Bottom line, unless you know your fold equity is close to 100 percent, fold this.
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Hence the mentioning of a nitty 100% fold to steal of the person you're stealing from.
Hands like 74o is pushing it though. If you do get called, don't continue with less than 2P+ obv. |
If I'm stealing with a hand as weak as 74o, I'm defo not giving up every pot unless I flop 2 pair+. We're obv still c-betting favourable boards. I'm not ever doing it in the first place though unless he's a huge nit. |
That's correct. As I said, I really don't like steals from the small blind with 74o. But if you are going to do it, c-betting is absolutely essential. Indeed, there are lots of players whose concept of "blind defense" consists of calling the pre-flop raise, hoping to hit something on the flop, and giving up if they don't. |
I thought c-betting was obvious enough not to mention it... what I meant was not continuing after the flop w/o 2pair+ or an OESD. I forget this is the BC. 
This whole conversation is stupid anyhow. I mean c'mon, we're talking about 74o. 
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
FWIW when "stealing" from SB, you are "stealing" the exact same amount.
Other than that, just FOLD.
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Assume no rake.
In no limit:
Let's say blinds are $1 and $2. Folds around to Hero on the button, Hero raises to $8. All fold.
Hero has stolen $3 for his $8 bet. Hero is getting 37 cents on the dollar.
Now, folds around to Hero in the small blind. Hero raises to $8. The big blind folds.
Hero has stolen $2 for his $7 bet. Hero is getting 28 cents on the dollar.
In limit.
Blinds are still $1 and $2, no rake.
Folds around to Hero on button, Hero raises to $4. All fold.
Hero has stolen $3 for his $4 bet. Hero is getting 75 cents on the dollar.
Folds around to Hero in the small blind. Hero raises to $4. Big blind folds.
Hero has stolen $2 for his $3 bet. Hero is getting 67 cents on the dollar.
In both instances, you are stealing less money from the small blind than you steal from late position, and you are getting worse odds. Ergo, you need a better hand to do it, even before you consider the fact that you are out of position.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
FWIW when "stealing" from SB, you are "stealing" the exact same amount.
Other than that, just FOLD.
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Assume no rake.
In no limit:
Let's say blinds are $1 and $2. Folds around to Hero on the button, Hero raises to $8. All fold.
Hero has stolen $3 for his $8 bet. Hero is getting 37 cents on the dollar.
Now, folds around to Hero in the small blind. Hero raises to $8. The big blind folds.
Hero has stolen $2 for his $7 bet. Hero is getting 28 cents on the dollar.
In limit.
Blinds are still $1 and $2, no rake.
Folds around to Hero on button, Hero raises to $4. All fold.
Hero has stolen $3 for his $4 bet. Hero is getting 75 cents on the dollar.
Folds around to Hero in the small blind. Hero raises to $4. Big blind folds.
Hero has stolen $2 for his $3 bet. Hero is getting 67 cents on the dollar.
In both instances, you are stealing less money from the small blind than you steal from late position, and you are getting worse odds. Ergo, you need a better hand to do it, even before you consider the fact that you are out of position. |
Youre wrong. Hero always gets 3BB when he steals blinds, money in the pot IS NOT YOURS.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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I just realized maybe my last post may look harsh, rude, or w/e. Ill explain what i meant. This way is more helpful for everybody:
Whenever you face a decision, and you want to maximize your expected value(of any particular choice), you should not consider past costs. Why not? They have already happened, and there is nothing you can do to change that fact. Instead, what you should consider is differential costs and differential benefits, those that change depending on the course of action you choose.
The above is "Decisions Theory". When it comes to poker it means that whatever money is in the pot at any given time(Say 3bb after both blinds posts and everyone except the blinds fold) is not yours anymore, its the pot´s money and you should not consider your 1bb. In other words that 1bb is a past cost and you should not consider it in the decision of "stealing" the blinds. BTW youre not stealing anything, just taking a +EV choice.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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jesus christ ppl the post is obv a level, too many n00bs on this site, not enough vets
anyone who knows anything understands 47o is the rippy and is playable in all positions and under every circumstance imaginable.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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{locked}
Are we seriously debating this? 74o is obviously a fold from the small blind in the majority of situations. And when the situation does call for playing 74o, we obviously don't limp it.
Also, it's da rippy!
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