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Danh Bai
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02-26-2009, 11:56 AM
Post subject: QQ reraised
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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Could have saved a few bb's here by raising to like $3.50, right? Is the c/f ok?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($1.85)
SB ($4.50)
BB ($7.95)
UTG ($2.20)
UTG+1 ($1.75)
MP1 ($15.45)
Hero (MP2) ($10.65)
MP3 ($10.40)
CO ($10.10)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with  , 
3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, MP3 raises to $1.30, 4 folds, Hero raises to $5, MP3 calls $3.70
Flop: ($10.15)  ,  ,  (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $5.40 (All-In), Hero folds
Total pot: $10.15 | Rake: $0.50
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Reads?
why 4bet QQ OOP @10NL?? Standard villains 3bet range is like KK+, AK. Is villain a maniac? Or at least, does he 3bet light?
c/f flop is fine. But the problem with the hand is obviously not flop play
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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If he's not a habitual 3-better, he could have you beat or a pre-flop coin-flip with AK. It's really a tough situation being OOP. Do you have any reads? How tight/loose is villain? I can only see 4-betting this OOP if villain is a real LAggtard. I think your 4-bet was a tad much. You just put in over 50BB pre-flop. If you're going to do that, you might as well just 4-bet shove and hope for the best. But like settecba said, the majority of 10NL players only 3-bet with KK+ and AK. Others add QQ, JJ and AQ.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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Danh Bai
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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I wouldn't say habitual, but he had 3 bet me a couple times earlier when i opened with like AT and AJ and didn't call his raise, so i guess i was looking to play back at him.
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Airles™
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Danh Bai
I wouldn't say habitual, but he had 3 bet me a couple times earlier when i opened with like AT and AJ and didn't call his raise, so i guess i was looking to play back at him.
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Did he ever showdown anything that he 3-bet preflop? If not, you're still in the same predicament as you won't be able to put him on an exact range of hands. If he had Aces (and possibly KK) he would have 5-bet shoved since half your stack was already in. You're probably looking at AK here IMO unless he's getting frisky with a lower pair or KQ-KJ type of hand. This is where having lots of hands on villain really helps, but obviously it's not that easy since there are so many players at these low-levels.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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if hes 3betting light, you should probably just call, not 4bet. Are you 4bet-bluffing?( my guess is youre doing it for value). If villains 3bet range isnt KK+,AK; youre more than likely narrowing it to that with your huge 4bet, when he calls it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Yes, settecba hit the nail on the head with that last post. Seriously, the only time I will EVER 4-bet QQ PF is if the guy has been 3-betting a lot. It took me a long time to learn not to play for stacks with QQ PF because most of the time people at the lower stakes aren't going to be showing up with less very often.
Next time, just flat with the QQ, and play it fast if no overs come. Obviously, this isn't a no exception rule, but it's worked pretty well for me so far.
c/f is fine on flop.
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POKEMONS
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
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A few things:
First off to settecba: I think the whole "3bets at micros are almost always KK+, AK" thing is an incredibly bad thing to assume. In my database of hands over 10NL and 25NL the average 3bet% is 4.9%. While I'm not sure exactly what range of this hands this would exactly correspond too, it is definitely wider than KK+, AK. Also, we should be more inclined to 4bet hands OOP than IP to reduce the amount of post-flop play when we are out of position.
As to the hand itself, I think 4betting this is fine sometimes, but it is really player dependent imo. If you think you can add JJ/AQ to the hands he'll stack off with, this becomes a pretty trivial 4bet/call shove. Of course if you think he's only stacking off with KK+, AK than calling the 3bet preflop is definitely the better option.
However, once you put half your stack in preflop, you pretty much can't fold the flop here. FWIW, I would just shove the flop especially since you should only be 4betting this preflop if you think he'll show up with a hand like AQ/TT in this spot.
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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4.9% = 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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POKEMONS
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
4.9% = 99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo
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That would seem about right
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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whats the 50BB 4bet calling range in your database?
i suppose youre not assuming this is the same as the 3bet range
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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POKEMONS
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
whats the 50BB 4bet calling range in your database?
i suppose youre not assuming this is the same as the 3bet range
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No, which is why I said that we should only be 4betting this if we feel we will get called by TT/JJ/AQ some of the time.
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Danh Bai
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 166
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I think with this guy he does show up with more than KK/AA. I was going to get the rest in on any non K/A flop
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okiman
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 171
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Danh Bai
I think with this guy he does show up with more than KK/AA. I was going to get the rest in on any non K/A flop
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Even if he's showing up with more than KK/AA here, what will he be willing to call your huge 4-bet with or 5-bet with? Probably KK/AA/AK. That was what settecba was pointing out. Against a player with a wide 3-bet range, you're shutting out the vast majority of his range that you do want to play against with your big 4-bet.
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