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HeAVyB101
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02-18-2009, 11:47 PM
Post subject: QQ preflop against 3bet
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 93
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Not sure what to do here. Player only had 15 hands at the table so far, so no info on him yet.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($41.75)
MP1 ($25.60)
MP2 ($19.85)
CO ($47.05)
Hero (Button) ($26)
SB ($21.55)
BB ($24.50)
UTG ($51)
Preflop: Hero is Button with , QdQh
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $1.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.25, 3 folds, MP1 raises to $10, Hero ?
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________________________________
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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i let that go without reads... considering thats >2/3rds his stack playing OOP to you i think its fairly obvious you're in trouble.
the only way id be pushing back is if it was against a lagg player who id played with and got reads on
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by texa8
i let that go without reads... considering thats >2/3rds his stack playing OOP to you i think its fairly obvious you're in trouble.
the only way id be pushing back is if it was against a lagg player who id played with and got reads on
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I agree. I've seen people do this with AK or AQ enough that it's not impossible that you might be ahead, but without reads, I'd say that the generic player 4 bets with QQ+ or even KK+. You're at best chopping.
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Not folding here is a major leak in my game, so I'll advise you to fold in this spot every time. I seem to always convince myself that they have AK and call/shove over and I never suck out on my 4-1 odds >.>
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Ich grolle nicht...
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kb coolman
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 596
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I'm with the others on this one. I hate to see a flop with QQ, and I'm behind a nit 4bet range way to often for this to be profitable.
I like the way you played it....now fold.
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Actually, I think the best response here is:
What are you doing 3betting if you don't know what to do if he 4bets?
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Ich grolle nicht...
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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Illfavor would u recomend cold calling ideally for a set and aim for pot control if played as an overpair?? or just knowing whether you plan to push or fold?
IMO if you're not 3betting in position with QQ what are you 3betting with?? easy three bet, then an easy (hard but logical) fold...
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by texa8
Illfavor would u recomend cold calling ideally for a set and aim for pot control if played as an overpair?? or just knowing whether you plan to push or fold?
IMO if you're not 3betting in position with QQ what are you 3betting with?? easy three bet, then an easy (hard but logical) fold...
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The point is to have a plan for the hand no matter what you do. He did not have the "Easy 3bet/fold spot" mentality. He had the "Easy 3bet/Oh noes" thought. 3betting EP raisers with QQ causes a lot of trouble (at least for me, and apparently others) and I've discussed it with some better players who have pretty much told me at these stakes you don't need to be 3betting more than AA/KK, especially if you don't know what you're doing. Just have a plan when you're "making moves" that put a significant % of your stack on the table is what I'm saying. Have a plan for every hand, but especially the ones where you're moving a lot of chips around.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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yeah cool i was just clarifying that u were after a plan..
would u 3bet QQ from the button at those stakes?
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Illfavor
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 1,152
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Well that's interesting because without a read or any stats on a player it's kinda hard to assign him a range, but yes I'd 3bet/fold here. I think a lot of these players are calling with 99-JJ and AQ+ (and we kill that range) and getting 4bet a tiny amount. But this is the bottom of my 3betting range, mostly bc I'm just not that good at it yet.
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Ich grolle nicht...
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HeAVyB101
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 93
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Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I did fold the ladies. It's hard to do sometimes and I really question myself when laying down a good hand like that. My reasoning was
1. The raiser was out of position
2. I reraised him first, and he came back over the top of me
3. At best I was looking at a 50/50 chance to win
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________________________________
Dumb man climb tree to get cherry, wise man spread limbs.
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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here's a question.. let's change the situation to 6max. is anybody now willing to go broke with queens??
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Illfavor
Actually, I think the best response here is:
What are you doing 3betting if you don't know what to do if he 4bets?
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This seems the right answer to me. In NL, it seems to me that when someone raises pre-flop with a significant stack and you are deciding to re-raise, you have to in a sense treat it as if it is a decision to go all-in (even though you aren't shoving at that point). Because there's at least a fair likelihood that you are going to be 4-bet and at that point you are either going to make a costly fold or you are going to shove your chips in.
Of course, this gets back to your reads. If you don't have any reads about Villain's pre-flop raising range, then you need to assign him a generic, relatively tight range. QQ probably has enough equity against a generic range, which might be AA-99, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs. But you need to adjust this range based on the typical players that play your stakes levels. And keep it a bit tighter than the actual typical player, because you are better off folding a small pot that you could have taken down than shoving and losing a big one.
Indeed, that's kind of the main thing to keep in mind about any play that could lead to you shoving pre-flop. Once you shove pre-flop, there's no turning back. If you aren't ahead you are going to have to suckout on the cards, and usually the odds are pretty long. And Villain can suckout on you too. What you are giving up is the ability to dump your queens when the board comes up A-K-4 monochrome, and the ability to make a more refined reading of your opponent on later streets but before the hand really starts to bleed your chips.
In other words, I understand that sometimes you have no choice but to do this, but I hate to make this play without any reads.
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cow344
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 24
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by texa8
here's a question.. let's change the situation to 6max. is anybody now willing to go broke with queens??
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Depends on my position and how many raisers there are in front of me!
The first post I would fold! But if there would be any thing like no raise of more than $3 ( 10 % of what brought to table) or less with one other player I would want to see flop and see how the betting went and cards shown.
But as for going broke with an all in bet pre-flop is not worth it.
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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yeah. it's just I've read strategy articles that suggest QQ is far too strong to lay down in 6max heads up like in this situation.. seemed a bit reckless to me too.
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POKEMONS
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 38
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I shove this all day in 6-max.
In 6-Max I expect a normal player to 4-bet out of position with, at the tightest, QQ+, AK which I'm pretty sure we have around 40% equity around. Factor in the times he folds to our shove or spazzes out with JJ/AQ and it becomes a profitable shove imo.
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