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Hoopy
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12-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Post subject: QQ on Mono Flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Villein was 47/13/0.2 over 15 hands, not really that reliable stats.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
CO ($3.26)
Button ($4.35)
Hero (SB) ($5.41)
BB ($5.87)
UTG ($2.88)
MP ($3.78)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , Q
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.35, BB calls $0.30, UTG calls $0.30, MP calls $0.30, 1 fold
Flop: ($1.45) 3 , 10, 4 (4 players)
Hero bets $1.20, BB raises to $2.40
Total pot: $3.85
Pre flop I'm way ahead of of his limp calling range which I believe is
(TT-66,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,AJo-A7o,K9o+,QTo+,JTo)
Which I have 74% equity against.
Other limpers will have a wide range.
On the flop I bet to get value from hands like Tx, 99-66 and flush draws.
When he raises I think his range is not that strong, a shove would be scarier.
I think his range is (99-88,Jh9h,ATo,Ah5s,KTo,Kh9s,QhTs) which I have 67%. Not to sure if this range is accurate, I think it's more probable for him to have a flush draw than a made flush and he's not likely to be doing this with air.
If I shove over does he just fold all worse hands and call with better? Calling seems bad as the pot will be so big compared to my stack that I'll be committed.
I think villein would slightly consider what I have, occasionally is trying to represent a flush and hopes I will fold to his min raise.
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illness
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16
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EDIT: As played, you're in an awkward spot OOP with 3 other callers PF.
On the flop, I'd check it and see what happens. If there's too much aggressive action, I'd fold. I don't like betting OOP in a 4 way pot mainly because your PF raise was weak. I think regardless, if he's drawing to any flush, he won't leave the hand.
As played, I'd fold.
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WildBill
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by illness
IMO I would raise a lot more preflop to isolate. In front of 3 limpers, I'd do 6-7xBB raise. As played, you're in an awkward spot OOP with 3 other callers.
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He did raise to 0.35$ preflop, this looks like 7xBB to me. I agree with all you wrote, he is just unfortunate people can't find the muck.
This looks like a perfect time to have a read: minbets/minraises draws (only usefull to have of course if he doesn't minbet and minraise made hands too)
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illness
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16
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Whooooooops! Sorry, Don't know why even after making sure it said 5NL, I thought it was 10NL. Edited.
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WildBill
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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No problem  I don't want to look like board police or anything. Yeah this is a check on flop for me too.
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WildBill
No problem I don't want to look like board police or anything. Yeah this is a check on flop for me too. |
Thanks for the reply, I don't like checking the flop as it potentially allows random hearts to draw for free/cheap + I'm still unsure of there range if I just check call.
Betting mainly for value and protection(if I bet near full pot so it makes it -EV for any flush draw to call because the implied odds aren't enough).
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illness
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 16
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Its hard to bet for value OOP in front of 3 callers. I think you might have a better idea of where you stood in the hand by checking.
If it does check around and a heart comes, you can make an easy fold. If it bricks, I'd agree with your line on the flop. The worst part of the hand is that there's 3 people left to act after you. =\ bonus is you could get away from it cheaply. You could probably find a much better spot later on.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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checking this flop would make me a sad sad sad sad sad panda. flopping flushes is uncommon even in 4-way pots, so assume the majority of their ranges is single pair hands and draws 'til they give you ANY kind of reason to think otherwise.
betting the flop SIMPLY to get information is bad enough; checking to gain information is just an unproductive way to miss out on value. also, you shouldn't really be any less willing to vbet OOP vs IP.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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WildBill
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 32
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HoopyDude
Betting mainly for value and protection(if I bet near full pot so it makes it -EV for any flush draw to call because the implied odds aren't enough).
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Draws that are going to call are A and K high. You're behind in some of the Ax hands (A2 A3 A4 A5 AT AK) and behind K2 K3 and KT. You're marginally ahead of the rest of aces and kings.
So probably a smaller bet on the flop would be better. Ask surviva, I said I'm checking this flop, can't change my mind now .
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Cougar
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 121
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Wow, re-raising a 4-way pot in second position is pretty strong action, would definitely consider a fold here.
BTW, in reference to the range on the flop, you had originally posted:
99-88,Jh9h,ATo,Ah5s,KTo,Kh9s,QhTs
Assume this was before you bet, after the villain raise, think this should be more like:
33, 44, TT, JJ+, AhTh, KhTh, AhQh, AhJh, KhQh, Ahx, 6h5h
I don't have access to PokerStove at the moment but that should give you a better idea where you stand (guessing it's <25%).
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------------------------
"...only time you stop learning is when your own ignorance & arrogance stops you from doing so!" -Martin Pritchett
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cougar
Wow, re-raising a 4-way pot in second position is pretty strong action, would definitely consider a fold here.
BTW, in reference to the range on the flop, you had originally posted:
99-88,Jh9h,ATo,Ah5s,KTo,Kh9s,QhTs
Assume this was before you bet, after the villain raise, think this should be more like:
33, 44, TT, JJ+, AhTh, KhTh, AhQh, AhJh, KhQh, Ahx, 6h5h
I don't have access to PokerStove at the moment but that should give you a better idea where you stand (guessing it's <25%).
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I don't think he ever shows up with QQ,KK or AA here, they would be in his raising range pre flop.
PS'ing that range I have 29%, but I feel that's too heavily weighted towards made flushes.
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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pre: fine
flop bet: fine
range: meh, id give him one or two flushes but i really doubt he as many here. Tendency would be "trap" for most fishies so i cant really see a nut hand like that do this. Two pairs are out, so that leaves sets and top pair type hands that may have redraws. throw in some Ah3x or Ah4x as well probably
also JJ is for sure in this range..but 99-88 are fairly unlikely.
Also also, for your preflop range i would make it even tighter. i just dont see ppl calling with J8s and T8s type hands from a 7x sb open
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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so what did the other two do before we had to think?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Under-bet the flop.
Like 50c is fine.
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Fnord why would you under bet this flop? Surely it gives any heart the correct odds to draw, is it so we are not pot committed if someone shoves/getting value from a wider range of hands.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Checking gives a free card that lets either lets total airball hands get there or is an open invitation to take away the pot.
A standard bet commits a lot of chips in a spot where we want to fold to a raise or check/fold a lot of turns.
You're never pushing anyone off of a hand that has a lot of equity.
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ChipTrix
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High Card
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
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Pre-flop, raise more. And on the flop bet / fold is standard. Your opponent isn't bluffing multi-way in a raised pot here. You have almost no re-draws.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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flop i would begrudgingly fold. Not many 2nl players understand the value of bluffing at a monotone board. He likely has the flush already or a draw. He may also be trying to protect a set. You are crushed versus 2 of those hands and not very far infront versus the other.
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