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QQ facing button 4-bet, 6-max (4-handed)

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-31-2009, 12:15 AM     Post subject: QQ facing button 4-bet, 6-max (4-handed) #1 (permalink)  
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 Does anyone shove over here? I think folding may be too gross, but this was a tricky spot because I didn't really plan ahead for a 4-bet ahead of time, mostly because I wasn't expecting one.

Villain is 20/10 over 40 hands, bit on the passive side - his ATS was 13%... I really have no idea what this 'proper' 4-bet size means considering I don't think I've ever seen one at this level, but I'm guessing its like polarized to either the nuts or some garbage hand not willing to take shit from a 3-bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($17.30)
SB ($10.25)
Hero (BB) ($10.65)
UTG ($11.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
1 fold, Button bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.60, Button raises to $3.50....Hero?

Worst part about this hand is I don't really have any history/reliable stats. What type of range would you guys assign an unknown here who's appears a bit on the tight/passive side?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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kmind
Old 03-31-2009, 12:23 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 If I decide to 3-bet for value it's with the intentions of getting it in. If that's not the case I will flat. But I'd put an unknown 10NL villain on AA/KK here with a few frequencies of AK/QQ.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-31-2009, 12:36 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 So perhaps I should have flatted the raise since it would keep his weaker (yet narrow) stealing range in and help keep the pot under control? Now that I think about it I'd rather 3-bet A7s here than QQ.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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kmind
Old 03-31-2009, 12:40 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
So perhaps I should have flatted the raise since it would keep his weaker (yet narrow) stealing range in and help keep the pot under control? Now that I think about it I'd rather 3-bet A7s here than QQ.
I mean I agree with all this. I'll wait for others to chime in.
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bigspenda73
Old 03-31-2009, 12:45 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 come on
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oskar
Old 03-31-2009, 01:22 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 4 handed? 100bb deep? Button vs blind? This is such an easy shovel against an unkown it's not even funny.
Calling is horrible. You're letting Ax, Kx catch up, you're not getting lots of value from smaller pairs when overcards hit.

I shove, but I open the player notes before I do, and whatever he has, I'm making a note on the min 4-bet in this spot.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-31-2009, 01:37 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
4 handed? 100bb deep? Button vs blind? This is such an easy shovel against an unkown it's not even funny.
Calling is horrible. You're letting Ax, Kx catch up, you're not getting lots of value from smaller pairs when overcards hit.

I shove, but I open the player notes before I do, and whatever he has, I'm making a note on the min 4-bet in this spot.
k give me a 4-bet range then.

he's not entirely unknown, hes been pretty inactive so far. If he were 54/42 that changes things.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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Old 03-31-2009, 01:53 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
4 handed? 100bb deep? Button vs blind? This is such an easy shovel against an unkown it's not even funny.
Calling is horrible. You're letting Ax, Kx catch up, you're not getting lots of value from smaller pairs when overcards hit.

I shove, but I open the player notes before I do, and whatever he has, I'm making a note on the min 4-bet in this spot.
k give me a 4-bet range then.

he's not entirely unknown, hes been pretty inactive so far. If he were 54/42 that changes things.
he's 4b the following hands for value: QQ+,AK give or take a few
now your job is to figure out how many bluffs he has in his range

to 3b bluff I'd need the guy to open lots of hands
and since it doesn't sound like I'd 3b bluff him a lot, 3b with QQ is OK if he flats worse hands
if we're getting him to fold hands as strong as AJo, it's probably not great to 3b and better to flat and check/raise a lot of the time we flop an overpair
I am not convinced that calling is horrible because we get a free cbet on the flop that's around the size of our 3b

so two betting sequences:
raise/3b -> we cbet he folds
raise/call -> we check, he cbets, we raise he folds

is around the same amount of money and we flop an overpair two thirds of the time

but when we 3b for value we kind of have to get it in
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kfaess
Old 03-31-2009, 02:12 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
come on
what does this mean?
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-31-2009, 02:15 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfaess
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
come on
what does this mean?
Oh now I see how that post count got so high :/
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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swiggidy
Old 03-31-2009, 02:16 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 Your 3bet doesn't need to be so big (unless he's calling with basically anything, then it's fine)
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Benzooka
Old 03-31-2009, 02:35 AM #12 (permalink)  
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4 handed it would have to be a super ultra gnit I KNEW didn't adjust to four handed to get QQ in. If you're trying to play an unexploitable game, you're threebetting frequently, and calling with the top part of your range. QQ is the top part of your range. Yeah, a lot of the time your beat, but I'd shovel it in.

Pokerstove QQ against QQ+,AK is 40% equity. A shove of $9 into a pot of would be 21.50 is nearly an equity shove. If he's doing anything else(bluffing/calls other pairs/calls AQ/folds AK) he's OWNED. Pwn. Headshot.
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oskar
Old 03-31-2009, 02:56 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzooka
he's OWNED. Pwn. Headshot.
qft

@ whoever wanted a range:

overall 4-bet% != 4-bet% here
+ Villain is legally retarded. 20/10 4-handed... i mean... wtf.
I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he showed up with 55 or J6 (mixin' it up). He's an idiot.

But like Benzooka correctly pointed out - it doesn't matter because we has teh pot odds.
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Micro2Macro
Old 03-31-2009, 03:13 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 Cool thanks for all the input guys. Even if this is boarderline breakeven I guess im still kinda freerolling him here from all the pots I pick up off him where he folds.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bigspenda73
Old 03-31-2009, 05:07 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 not worth explaining further, you have QQ button vs bb in a 4-handed game

kiddie game down the street
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